Prima Secundae
142. Summa I-II Q59 A3–4: Can the virtuous man be sad? Is every moral virtue about the passions?
Class of 2013-11-08
https://berquistcourse.com/course/theology/11-prima-secundae/142-summa-i-ii-q59-a3-4-can-the-virtuous-man-be-sad-is-every/

[0:01] Name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Amen. Thank you, God. Thank you, guardian angels. Thank you, Thomas Aquinas. Dio Gracias. God, our enlightenment, guardian angels, strengthen the lights of our minds, illumine our luminar images, and arouse us to consider more correctly. Saint Thomas Aquinas, angelic doctor, and help us to understand what you've written. Name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Amen.

[0:44] Okay, we're up to Article Three, I guess, in Question Fifty Nine. To the third one goes for thus. It seems that virtue is not able to be with what sadness, right? And there's those Stoics getting us in trouble again, huh?

[1:06] For virtues are an effect of wisdom, right? According to the words of the Book of Wisdom, Chapter Eight, huh? That wisdom, that is divine wisdom, teaches sobriety and what justice, right? Prudence and virtue, and the acquaintance with wisdom has no what bitterness,

[1:34] Which Thomas quotes at the beginning of the Summa Contra Gentiles right? Nothing is more delightful than pursuit of wisdom, he says. As we'll declare later. on. Therefore, neither are the virtues able to be what with sadness, huh? You think about God with sadness, huh? Think about your sins with sadness. Yeah. You think about God, huh?

[2:06] Moreover, sadness is an impediment to operation, huh? Is clear to the philosopher in the seventh and also the tenth book of Nicomachean Ethics. But what is an impediment of good operation is repugnant to virtue. Therefore, sadness is repugnant to what? Virtue.

[2:30] Moreover, sadness is a certain sickness of the soul. Yes. As Tully himself calls it in the third book of the Tusculan Questions, huh? But the sickness of the soul is contrary to what virtue, which is a good disposition of the soul, right? I'm con I'm inclined to call a lot of people nowadays. You're sick. They're moral position. Yeah, yeah. Therefore, sadness is contrary to virtue. Nor can indeed together what with it.

[3:15] But against all this nonsense is that Christ was perfect in what virtue. Virtue. But in him there was what sadness, as is found in Matthew twenty-six. My soul is sad. Usque ad mortem, right? He was sad there with his friend there who died. Yeah, yeah. He wept. He wept. That's an account there.

[3:45] Shortest verse in the Gospels. See how he loved him, right? So. Therefore, sadness is able to be a virtue, right? Huh. That's pretty good. Contra.

[4:05] I answer. It should be said. that as Augustine says in the fourteenth book of the City of God. The Stoics what wish that for three disturbances in the soul disturbances in the soul of the wise men there are three what good undergoings. That is three good passions, right? For cupidity, to wit, will right.

[4:33] For laetitia, I guess, which is kind of inept joy, right? Gaudium, huh? For what fear caution. For sadness, they denied that it could be in the soul of the what wise man. That's when Shakespeare, you know, puns it down, right? There should be no stoic, no stocks, right? Stocking in the whack and pack and just stays there and takes it.

[5:07] It's like the the Greek Stoic, you know, where the problem knew that his son had died. He said, "Well, I always knew he was mortal."

[5:21] In human, right? And they had two reasons for saying it shouldn't be sad, right? Huh. For sadness is about something bad that is already what happened, huh? But they thought that nothing bad could happen to the what wise man. Yeah. For they believe that the only good of man is what virtue. Yeah. That the bodily goods are no goods of man, right? Sounds like thinking he's just a soul, right, or something, and therefore only what is contrary to good of the soul in in honestum, right?

[6:14] The dishonorable good is an evil of man which could not be in the what? Spiritual man. Yeah. That's a friend of mine who made his his little motto in high school: "Death before dishonor." Well, was Christ was Christ dishonored in his passion?

[6:43] Where he underwent it. Wasn't that really so bad though? Death before dishonor, right? Well, depends on. Not doing dishonor to save your dishonorable to save your life, right? Yeah. Deny the faith or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he, I think, he was certainly dishonored in his passion. But he wasn't doing any dishonor. No, I didn't say that.

[7:02] Maybe the dishonor in terms of what you do yourself and how others treat you. That's how I would understand it. No, so the question there, now, kid, in grade school, you know, can the maiden jump off the building there to escape being raped? You know, and she'd say, "Yes, I don't know."

[7:21] If well, I think some of the some some have suggested that if she's in danger of consenting, yes, she should. Yeah. But if she's not in danger of consenting, because it's better to better in that sense, yeah, death before dishonor, right? Before consenting to sin, better to lose your life.

[7:48] But this is said unreasonably, Thomas says, right? So even the angelic doctor finds this unreasonable. For since man is put together from soul and body, right? That which

[8:08] confers, I want to do my proper word there. That which cooperates, right, to conserving the life of the body is something good for man, right? On his greatest good, right? But not over what his greatest good, because the man can use it what badly, right?

[8:32] Whence an evil opposed to this good, or an evil contrary to this good, right, is able to be in the what wise man, and to bring about a what moderate sadness. So when your father dies, or your mother dies, or your brother dies, or your friend dies, right, then there should be some sadness, right,

[8:59] and not excessive, but. Moreover, although the virtuous man is able to be without a what grave sin, right? Nevertheless, no one is found who is without who leads a life without what levibus peccatis huh? Yeah, yeah.

[9:29] For as it said in the first epistle of John, if we say we have no what sin, we seduce ourselves. Put that in your pipe, smoke it. So there's something to be sad about, right? You know, even about your venial sins, huh? Before it's yours, about the other ones, right? Third, because the virtuous man, although perhaps he does not have sin, perhaps he what? At one time, had it right?

[10:02] Okay. There's this conversation between Augustine there and Thomas, you know. or, Augustine's supposed to appear to Thomas? I don't know if that's, you know, true or not. But Augustine was saying, you know, yeah, but I I left a good life there early, you know. So, and you were more chaste than I was, and so, on. so I don't know. but who's going to be higher in heaven.

[10:26] Maybe you will be, Thomas. I don't know what the whole story is, I was reading about Padre Pio. we're going to go to Padre Pio's place, you know. Yeah, yeah. And, but I guess when when John Paul II made him, either beatified him or canonized, him, I forget. Uh, he said, he, as a young priest, he'd gone to confession to Father. uh... Yeah, yeah. Master, sometimes even you know American soldiers try to go to confession to him, you know, after the end of the war there, you know.

[11:02] So interesting, interesting. Interesting saint. But he had you know physical pain. And other things. Yeah. Some woman, some woman grabbed his arm, you know, to kiss his hand or something. He yelled at her, and she's she's, she kind of shied away, and he says, "Madam, these aren't decorations."

[11:37] He didn't shake hands either. It's not, it's not a decoration. It hurts. So if you haven't passed in about this one, laudably, right? Mm-hmm. Praisworthily. Sorrow, Sorrows, huh? According to that of Saint Paul, Second Corinthians, the sadness which is according to God works penance into a what stable salvation, right? And fourth, because one is also able to what? Praiseworthily. sorrow for the sin of another. Yeah, yeah.

[12:15] That's why in the Syriac tradition, the monk is called one who mourns. That's they don't name him by solitude, singleness, or anything. They ta- they name him in terms of mourning. Mhm. Blessed Mhm.

[12:30] You know, our our Lord doesn't he, when he kind of weeps over Jerusalem, right? There, he's weeping over this the sinfulness of it, right? Because he even gets a little bit angry one time there with the Pharisees. Not the Pharisees, but some people there. He was the Pharisees? You know, the hardest of their hearts, right? Yeah, it's an hard guy.

[12:50] Whence, in that way in which moral virtue is compatible with what other passions, moderated by reason, right? It is compatible also with what. Sadness. Okay.

[13:10] That's a reply to the first reason why the Stoics, right? So this is nothing bad for us, right? Well, it's bad, but it's not the worst thing that can happen, right?

[13:28] You should love the soul more than the what body, right? If a man commits adultery or fornication with a woman, you'd say he loves her body more than her what soul, right? Which is disordered, huh? to say the least.

[13:45] Secondly, they are moved from this. that's the Stoics, I guess. That sadness is about a what present evil, fear about a what Future. future evil, right? Just as pleasure is about a present good, right? Desire is for a what future Future good, right? Huh? Now it can be can pertain to virtue that someone enjoys a good that he has, or he desires to have one that he does not have, right?

[14:21] Or even that he avoids a future evil, right? But the present evil, when the soul of man is what, Subject to it. Yeah, it comes about through sadness. Altogether, it seems to be contrary to reason, right? Huh? Can't do anything about it, right? Always knew he was mortal, right? Yes, there's a there's a Japanese saying. What was it? Thomas Morris was telling us. Many of the Japanese, like when the typhoon hit or whatever, or the tsunami or whatever, and they just kind of say they have a word that we don't have.

[14:54] We don't have one word for in English. They just kind of they just kind of shrug their shoulders and like there's nothing you can do about it. Mhm. That's their attitude. kind of.

[15:05] I was thinking of the Japanese as being a little bit stoic, you know. Yeah, sometimes, yeah. But this also is is said unreasonably, right? Huh?

[15:20] For there is something bad that is able to be present to the what virtuous man has been said, huh? Which evil reason what detests? Huh? Whence the sense desiring power in this follows the what detesting of reason, right? They'd be sad about this evil, right? Huh? But nevertheless, in a moderate way, right? According to the what judgment of what reason, Reason, right?

[15:56] So poor Romeo there, right? Huh? Obviously, sadly, thinks Juliet has died, but but it's too much, right? And then she thinks, well, She knows he's dead, right? It's too much for her. For this pertains to virtue that the sense-desiring power be conformed to reason. Now, whence it pertains to virtue that one be sad in a moderate way in those things that one ought to be what? Sad.

[16:29] Yeah. Just as the philosopher says in the second book of the Ethics, right? Do you remember this? Where is it? Is it here or back home? I forget. But a guy came into the hamburger place, you know, late at night, and he had his hand with a gun, and just a little lady was looking behind the counter, at, the last person working there at the place, and he said, "Put the money in the bag."

[17:03] No, what's a poor little girl supposed to do? All by herself with this guy, you know, at the thing. And so she puts the money in the bag, and then she starts to pass the bag. and he takes his hand down and she realizes he doesn't have a gun, right? He doesn't have a gun. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, yeah, his hand out. Pocket to get the bag. And she's got a better hold of the bag than he does, right?

[17:27] She gets like this, and he just funny. He runs out, right? And he's sad, right? Of course he's sad. Yeah, of course, It was a bad day. Unproductive day. Was that virtuous or not? that sadness. Yeah. So, what'd you be sad for? You should be sad that he was trying to rob the bank, right? But Yeah. Yeah. There was one here a case in in, she was in Appen, Worcester, in one of the banks or things.

[17:59] A guy comes in, right, and he hands the woman the note. You know, put the money in the bag, right? And she kind of sized up the guy was kind of nervous, you know. That's why he'd written out the message rather than delivering it So she says, "Oh, this is an unusual withdrawal notice I'll have to go and check and see."

[18:28] So he runs out too, right? Then the police pick him up shortly after. He can kick himself, you know. Yeah. And then then, then she's on the way to him, you know. Those are two, two examples where.

[18:41] Or like the guy, the guy that I heard this one recently was when. You know, people have the phone in their pocket and accidentally dial. So a guy goes to rob a convenience store and he accidentally dialed nine one one while he's robbing the store.

[18:57] So when he got out, he met the cops. They were there. Yeah. Yeah. I always take those examples from. Students to say, you know how we identify ourselves more with our reason than anything else, right? Because they're not concerned about the fact they're doing something immoral or robbing or something like that, but that they're so stupid, right? If he kept his hand in his pocket and taken the money with his left hand, he would have got it all, you know.

[19:29] I'm gonna put that one in volume 2. And he goes on to say, and this is also useful for what? Fleeing bad things, right? For just as goods, on account of pleasure, are more promptly what sought, right? Huh? So evils, on account of sadness, are more strongly what fled? Yeah. Okay. Thus, therefore, it should be said that sadness about those things which fit virtue, right, is not able to be together with virtue, right?

[20:16] Because virtue delights in its own what proper acts, right? Okay. But about those things which, in any way, are repugnant to virtue, virtue moderately is what sad. Sad, yeah, yeah.

[20:39] So one should be sad about people committing abortion and so on, you know, and other things of this sort. Okay. To the first, therefore, it should be said that from that authority that was quoted in the book of wisdom, right? Huh?

[21:04] It should be had that the wise man is not sad over what wisdom, right? Yeah. Okay. But he is sad about those things which impede wisdom.

[21:22] And therefore, in the blessed, in whom there is not able to be any impediment to wisdom, right? Sadness has no what place. Place. Huh.

[21:38] Now, to the second, what about sadness being impediment? To the second, it should be said that sadness impedes the operation about which we are what sad. Huh? So if the student doesn't like to study, he's sad when he studies. That's going to impede his learning, right? But it aids one to promptly what carry out those things by which sadness is what fled, escaped from. To the third, he says that sadness that's immoderate, huh?

[22:13] Excessive is a sickness of the soul, right? Huh? Melancholy, right? Too much. Huh. But moderate sadness, huh, pertains to the good what disposition of the soul, according to the status of the present life, huh? Okay. So Christ is a good example of that, right? Sed contra there. Now the. Article four: Whether every moral virtue is about the what passions, right? About the emotions.

[23:03] To the fourth, then one goes for it. Thus, it seems that every moral virtue is about the what passions, right? For the philosopher says in second book of the ethics that moral virtue is about pleasures and what sadnesses, right?

[23:23] But pleasure and sadness are two of the what Eleven passions, right? It has been said above. Therefore, every moral virtue is about the passions, right?

[23:38] I mean, they must understand a bit. In what way every moral virtue is about pleasures and sadnesses, right? Is it about its proper matter, or is it something that follows upon its act?

[23:53] Moreover, what is reasonable by participation is the subject of what moral virtues, as is said in the first book of the ethics. Aristotle divides the soul into that rational part and the part that is not rational, and that's part of that non-rational part can partake of reason, right? Okay.

[24:18] But of this sort is the part of the soul in which are the passions. Therefore, every moral virtue is about the passions. So you distinguish the virtues into the virtues of reason itself, and then what can partake of reason, right? Well, it's the emotions, isn't it? Okay. And I think I mentioned a bit pursuing not talking about the will here, right? Or looking at, but even the great Plato, right?

[24:47] In the Republic, there, right? He divides the soul into three parts, right? Correspond to the three parts of the what city, right? Socrates does, and you have reason, right, which corresponds to the rulers, right, and then fortitude, which corresponds to the soldiers, right, and so on, and then temperance to the mob, right, The old ploy, right? And so he doesn't have really the will in there, right?

[25:17] Then the question is, where does justice belong? Well, justice is the order of these three together, right? But it doesn't have itself as a separate part. So even you can say Plato is a little bit responsible for this objection, right? If somebody might come to this objection, right?

[25:34] Aristotle, you know, in the Nicomachean Ethics, he what after he talks about the moral virtue in general there in the second book, right, and then about choice in the beginning of book three, right. The first two virtues he takes up are what fortitude and what temperance, right? Just like Plato is, right? Then he goes into the lesser ones, and then in book four and then book five he talks about what justice, right?

[26:00] But he does begin with with courage and what temperance, right? It doesn't stop there, right? That's a good beginning, Plato, right? But there being further away, you get this idea of what participation more you have to do with the will do with the will, right? And you see a lot in in music, right? Good music, right? So Mozart's, music is kind of a witness that emotion can partake of reason, right?

[26:28] Good baroque music, huh? Warren Murray's telling me something interesting. He's hearing a lecture on Johann Sebastian Bach, right? Huh? And I guess it's the B minor Mass, I think, which some people think is his greatest work, right? Well, he wrote the B minor Mass, I guess, when he was applying for a job at a Catholic church. Interesting. And so Warren said he's following the the the the Roman Mass rather than the Lutheran Mass, right?

[26:59] Most of his masses are Lutheran, right? So that's why that's kind of interesting. He didn't get the job, though, so I don't know. But

[27:17] you know, you've seen Handel you know, talking about when he's writing the Messiah, you know. We thought the heavens opened up. He was seeing, you know, like a vision almost. He felt, you know, that that inspired. You know, it's really, really, really very good music, you know, very good.

[27:46] Moreover, in every moral virtue there is found some passion, right? Either therefore all are about the passions or none, but some are about the passions, as fortitude and temperance, as is said in the third book, like I was mentioning, right? Those are the first ones he takes up, and therefore all moral virtues are about what passions, huh?

[28:13] Kind of interesting, huh? They kind of make you know, fortitude is especially the virtue of the man, right? You know, You're a man or a mouse, and then what temperance is especially the virtue expected of the woman, right? Huh? You know, so those two kind of stand out, you know.

[28:30] What is justice? You know, to identify one so much. But against this is that justice, which is a moral virtue, is not about the what passions, as is said in the fifth book of the Ethics, right? That's the book devoted to what justice, huh?

[28:53] I answer. It should be said that, moral virtue perfects the desiring part of the soul. Right? Petitiva means our desiring, right? The desiring part of the soul by ordering it to the what? To the good of reason, right?

[29:18] Now that is the good of reason that is moderated or ordered by what? Reason, right? Huh? Whence about everything that it can happen to be ordered or moderated by reason, right? It can happen that there is a what? Moral virtue, right? Now, reason orders not only the passions of the what? Sense power, but also orders the operations of the understandable desiring power, right? Which is the will, which is not the subject of what?

[29:59] Passion. Passion, huh? Okay. Of course, it's very difficult, I know. When I was teaching, you know, you try to distinguish the love that is an emotion from the love that's actual. Very hard for people to get that, right? And to really separate the two, right? And you tell them it's doing emotions in God, and they go, "This, this is the love of God." He's just a stone.

[30:24] He doesn't get no he doesn't feel for us at all. He doesn't feel our pain at all. You had that comment when people say, "Oh, we should be passionate for God." I don't know if that's the way to put it. I don't know if that's the right way to put it. Well, you know, they accuse sometimes really Greeks, you know, of not distinguishing between the reason and the senses, right?

[30:49] And later on, of course, you know, people don't distinguish between reason and imagination, right? I think it's easier, nevertheless, to distinguish between reason and the senses than between the will and the what? Emotions, yeah. You should talk to them about marriage, and I'd say now, what does the the priest who's officiating there say? You know, do you have wonderful feelings about this woman? Do you have wonderful feelings about this man?

[31:25] Are you making a what? Are you witnessing the wonderful feelings you have about each other? Say, or are you asking them? You know, do you choose this woman as your wife, and do you choose this man as your husband? Right? You're witnessing to that you've made a choice, right? But they have a hard time. Seeing it, you know, and you read these passages from St. Paul about love, you know, and how great a thing it is.

[31:54] But the thing of the emotion, sure, you know, my sort of skin fights him. Now we don't mean we quoted from Paul here. This is what he meant. He meant an act of the will. He didn't mean an emotion, right? And he says, love your neighbor as yourself, feel as good about your neighbor as you feel about yourself.

[32:28] So Aristotle says, sometimes you know the will is in reason, right? And there is using reason for what the rational part of the soul, right? It's something immaterial. So we have emotions in common with the what purring kitten right? But we have will in common with the angels.

[32:58] Been doing a little excursion there from the Summa Contra Gentiles there. you know, got to the second book. reading reading the second book. So I said, I'm going to read a little more about the angels, you know. So went to the questions there, a couple questions in the De Veritate, you know. We can never settle Thomas. He's something. Those angels are really interesting, though.

[33:24] It's really marvelous the way he does that. Incredible. And therefore, not every moral virtue is about passions, but some are about passions, and some are about what operations, yeah.

[33:49] You know, in Thomas' Latin. if you're looking at the Latin there, you know, and he makes the distinction between an operation or an action like understanding or sensing, right, as opposed to kicking or heating or something, right. The one that has an exterior effect and one that doesn't. He uses the word axio for what both of them, right? But then for an act like understanding or even sensing, right, he uses the word operatio, right?

[34:23] And then keep the word axio for for the other ones, right? So it's a good example that. Now in English, what the words to use? I'm not sure that even Latin that those that's entirely at home that use the words, but that's the way he does, right? He uses that term operatio, right?

[34:46] I sometimes talk about the words doing and making, right? And there you could divide doing into doing and making, right? And there the operation or the doing that has no exterior product keeps the name doing. The one that has an exterior product gets a new name, which is what making, right? So it's not because it has something better, right? Because it's an exterior thing, but it has something addition to the doing itself, right?

[35:21] Naming a product, right? So that's why it gets the new name making, huh? Making there. Yeah. So when I'm thinking about God or thinking about the soul, there I'm doing something.

[35:39] Not making, not making anything, right? I make something out of it. Self made man Yeah, they tell the students I'm living it up, you know. Thinking about God, thinking about yeah, I'm going to live it up this weekend. Oh, gee, what do you do? What do you do? I have to do it. I have to do it. Now, at first objection though from Aristotle, right? Huh? He said that what moral virtue is about pleasures and what sadnesses, right?

[36:22] Says to the first, therefore it should be said that not every moral virtue is about pleasures and sadnesses as about its own what matter, right? But it's as about something what following upon its own act, right?

[36:41] For everyone who is virtuous delights in the act of virtue, right? Huh? So I delight in paying my debts, huh? Okay. And he's sad about the what contrary, right? Huh? So I rejoice that I drank moderately, or I'm sad that I drank too much, huh? Okay. Like, no, was it something? Whence the philosopher, after the four said words, adds, if virtues are about what acts and passions, right?

[37:20] There's a distinction between act and passions there. And to every passion and every action there follows some what pleasure or what sadness, huh? On account of this, then virtue will be about pleasures and sadnesses, right? To wit, about something what following upon, right? Huh? Okay. So you got to be careful that, right? Huh? I was thinking, you know, about the word beautiful, right? And is beautiful more the object of the knowing powers or of the desiring powers, right?

[38:00] The desiring. Yeah, I remember at one. I think that's true now, you know. I remember at one time, you know, I kind of thought, you know, well, you know, fall in love with a beautiful girl. Isn't it more the object of the appetite, right? And then taking a sign from the English word lovely, right, which is kind of a synonym for beautiful, right? But lovely, derived from the word love, wasn't it more the object of love than of knowing, right?

[38:32] But when you define the the beautiful, right, the first definition of beautiful is beautiful is that which pleases when seen. Say, oh, pleases? Well, that's that's that's the appetite, right? That's not the knowing power, right? But if you look at that correctly, right? That pleasure is something that follows upon seeing, right? So it's primarily what an object of the seeing power, right? And it's the pleasure is a consequence, you know, of the excellence of what you see, right?

[39:06] Thomas was talking, you know, in the Summa Contra Gentiles he was, he's quoting Aristotle there. Aristotle says that perfect seeing, you know, this way Thomas quotes it, perfect seeing,

[39:27] is the act of a well disposed sight, right, towards the most beautiful of what objects, right? I was kind of struck by him saying, you know, the most beautiful of objects, right? Because he's talking now about perfection of the knowing power is what act, right?

[39:48] And you know how Augustine there in the Confessions, I think he says, too late have I come to know thee, thou ancient beauty, right? And but the thing that really struck me most was when talking about the appropriation to the different members of the Trinity, right? And when Thomas is explaining the appropriation of beauty to the to the Son, right, rather than to the Holy Spirit, right?

[40:13] Why goodness is appropriated to the Holy Spirit because that's the object of what of love of the will, yeah. And he proceeds by way of love, right? So that's why we appropriate goodness to him, right? And but as soon as I say part of the Father and wisdom to the Son and this, but beauty in this other way, of it. Species. Yeah, species, yeah, is appropriated to this the Son who proceeds by way of mind, you know.

[40:42] So seems to me primarily, right, that which seen pleases. Maybe if you put that way, you put the consequence in its proper place, grammatically, right? I mean, so the grammatical order would not be so distinctive. You see it. That which pleases when seen, you you you're emphasizing the pleasure of it, right? And that seems to bring in the appetite more, right? If you say that which seen pleases, right, well, the primary it's the object of seeing, right?

[41:13] And the pleasing is something that follows upon the seeing of this beautiful object, right? That's like Saint Thomas says in the last verse of the Adoro Te Devote. I'll be blessed when I see your glory. I haven't seen your glory, I'll be blessed. I'll be happy

[41:37] I was talking about that Psalm there a few while back. There, oh God, you are my God, whom I seek. You, my flesh, pines, and my soul thirsts like the earth parched. life is without water. That's why I gaze towards you in the sanctuary to see your power and your glory. Well, saying that power and glory, maybe he mentions those two because there's something for the body too.

[41:58] So he said, "My flesh pines and my soul thirsts." Right, the soul's going to be rewarded by the, vision of the glory, like you say in the Adorate Devote. But when Christ is talking to the Sadducees, right, who don't believe in the what resurrection, right, which is getting your body back, right, and he says, "You know neither the scriptures nor the power of God," right. Says he, kind of, you know, he wanted to, and it's the same order, right?

[42:28] My flesh pines and my soul thirsts. See your power and your glory, right? The power for you getting back your body, and you know.

[42:38] I was thinking there, you know, the the saints there, you know, and these we had all Souls Day, all Saints Day, you know, and called these the feasts of the of the communion of saints, right? The feast of the communion of saints. And uh I said, well, now do the saints what pray for us? Huh? Yeah, but do they pray for themselves? I said, well, just for their body.

[43:02] They want their body back? That's all they need, right? So they may be praying for us, you know. But now, when the number of the elect is completed and everybody gets their body back, right? Huh? Then there won't be much reason to ask God for anything. You'll just be praising Him and thanking Him forever, right? Forevermore. But what do you need? anything, right? But now they want their body back, that's all for themselves.

[43:29] But maybe they're praying for us, right? Huh? Yeah. It's part I was reading by Thomas, so he's quite clear about that. You know that the the saints know what goes on down here on earth. It's kind of interesting. You see, he's talking about that.

[43:47] So they hear your prayers, right? Huh? Yeah. Then we pray for the souls in purgatory, but I assume the saints do too, too. So this is really kind of marvelous this communion of saints. the marvelous article of the faith. Yeah. Is it possible for the souls in purgatory to pray for each other?

[44:19] I don't remember anybody saying that. I think they could in some way, you know, pray, but But I've never heard people say, you know. I remember. I think many of us praying for for them, you know, but but see the saints would also. Yeah, they can't merit for themselves, but I remember somebody said, "to me, I, I expressed it as they don't, they can't pray for themselves."

[44:41] And he says, "You mean they can't say, 'God have mercy on me'?" And I said, "Well, he would say, 'I did. You're in purgatory. '"

[44:55] I remember Father Stanley, the priest I admired the most of my youthful days. You know, and and when my father died, he told my mother, you know, never stop praying for him because we don't know when anybody gets out of purgatory. You know, but you just never say, you know, now it's enough. Enough for him. He's all the things. Yeah, I got a plenary indulgence today, so.

[45:15] That's it. Because you know, if he's already in heaven, you know, then you expect those prayers are going to go to somebody else, right? Yeah. You know. The heavenly recycling bin. Yeah. Just turn them over to somebody else. Yeah. That's a marvelous article of faith, communion of saints. It seems to me. Very consoling. I don't know if the Protestants have too much of an understanding of that, and they kind of a lot of them.

[45:44] It seems they reject the idea that the saints even know about, us. and if they did, they wouldn't care or something. It seems kind of inhuman. Yeah. Yeah.

[45:55] Well, it's just souls right You kind of can pick that up very much from Thomas. You know, Peter's not in heaven, right? But the soul of Peter's in heaven, right? And so, when he spoke to I guess Pius XII, right? That's part of the argument, right? That if Mary's body had not been assumed into heaven, right, then Mary would not be in heaven, right? Maybe the soul of Mary is in heaven, right?

[46:23] But the person is not. So she had to be, you know, her body had to be assumed in heaven, right? So Mary could be in heaven, right? Magnificent. Get beautiful things in the on the Assumption De Koninck Very good.

[46:43] Good Okay. Dionne puts up an article there on what the the grace of Mary's of the hypostatic order. You can see that, right? huh? Because of being the Mother of God, huh? I think that's what I've heard some theologians say about it. That's maybe one way of expressing why she said, "I am the immaculate conception, not just "I was conceived immaculate. " Something that pertains to her own person, like a dignity of a person.

[47:19] Yeah, and it's kind of a she's the mediatrix of all grace, right? So she's kind of it's kind of universality for causality there. You express it with the abstract, right? In a sense, huh? So

[47:34] God is wisdom itself, right? Because He's the source of all wisdom, right? Not that we are immaculately conceived, but but our purification, right, comes through her intercession right. Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of death, right? I mean, it's... well chosen. Those words.

[47:59] I mean, that second part of the Hail Mary is what comes from the tradition of the church, right? It was not in scripture. The first part is taken from the words of scripture, right, of the angel and Elizabeth, yeah.

[48:15] But the other words are very the words of tradition are very well chosen, I think, it seems to me. They follow the order. The other thing, too, It says you see, Holy Mary, that corresponds what to the Lord is with, and then Mother of God. That's the second part there. Blessed art thou, this is the third. It is magnificent. The order, you know. I heard a priest

[48:43] say that the famous exorcism case that was the basis for the book and the movie called The Exorcist. Yeah. A Jesuit that I was working a parish where I was long ago. I think he knew the Jesuit who did part of the exorcism or whatever, but he was involved with it. He said that one of the things that drove the demon made him very angry and got him, I'd say, afflicted.

[49:10] Was that part of the Hail Mary, Holy Mary, Mother of God? That was the one he said that drove him absolutely bonkers. He just went nuts. It was really afflicting him. He maybe maybe I don't know how to explain it, but maybe his personal trial and fall was over that particular truth or something or pertain to it because that really afflicted. Well, somebody associated the movie was on

[49:33] EWTN there, you know, interviewed by Raymond Arroyo, you know. And I guess this movie is one most people found most frightening movie of all, Right? You know. But it was kind of interesting when he was talking about how this influenced, you know, the producer and so on. You know, about about the faith and so on. Yeah, because the evidence is pretty strong there, you know. And but anyway, then he how do you get talking about Georgetown, right?

[50:03] Yeah, I guess in the in the law school at Georgetown, they they they they got a special unit there that's teaching women how to you know support their abortion stuff and the thing. And so the guy says, "So the demons are loose there It's strange to have been, talking about all this, you know, the movie, you know, with Raymond Roy, demons are looseies on the campus there.

[50:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah. The guy, the guy that wrote the book is a graduate of Georgetown. That may be the connection. there Yeah, Yeah, But um I think At least the guy wrote the book. I think yeah. The guy that wrote the book, I think he placed the plot, placed the story in Washington D. C. But I think it actually took place in Saint Louis, and it was a boy and not a girl or something.

[50:46] Yeah, yeah. Well, that's very appropriate to say that thing about his own alma mater. Demons are loose, right? Yeah, really. Yeah, he's the one. He brought a suit, a canonical suit, against the school now. Because they're no longer Catholic, and so it's actually Cardinal Archbishop of Washington has approved that it go on with the Vatican. He has no objection that this suit go on that they take away their Catholic title.

[51:19] I was noticing there at the other Jesuit school, well, Marymount, right. I guess the administration finally decided not to accept this, you know, health thing with the abortion thing. And some of the faculty members were very disturbed. You know, so we have a choice to make between being a a a great school in the Jesuit Marymount tradition, or be one that obeys, you know, what the church.

[51:49] says. Oh boy! I said, I said, Rosie, this is the clear example of this mindset of these people, you know, which is. Yeah. Wow! Declaration of Independence.

[52:07] I don't know how many of the faculty are saying this thing, you know. but it's a group of these people. Okay. Can we finish the replies here? I guess. One second. Second one, then the third one. The third. It should be said that in some virtues are what passions as their own what matter, right? Huh? In some, not. Huh? Hence, there is not the same reason about all of them as will be seen later on, right?

[52:56] Okay. Take a break. I guess. Okay.