Prima Secundae
192. Aquinas: Does original sin reach everyone? Mary, miraculous formation, cloning, and the father's role in passing it on (Summa I-II, q. 81 aa. 3-5)
Class of 2014-12-11
https://berquistcourse.com/course/theology/11-prima-secundae/192-aquinas-does-original-sin-reach-everyone-mary-miraculous/

[0:00] Okay. To the third one proceeds thus. It seems that the sin of the first parent is not what—not passed over by origin to what all men.

[0:23] For death is a punishment following upon what original sin. But not all who proceed by way of seed from Adam die. For those who are alive who are found alive in the coming of our Lord, right? They never die, as it seems through this that is said in 1 Thessalonians.

[0:54] that we who live will what in the advent of our Lord those who what sleep who are dead. Therefore, they do not contract what.

[1:16] Let's. See what Thomas says about that, huh? Might be a quick death there, you know. Moreover, no one gives to another what he himself does not have. But the baptized man does not have original sin. Therefore, he doesn't carry it over or pass it on to his son. There you go. See, there's a problem here. Yeah. We've discovered something. Yeah.

[1:51] You guys should be thankful in confession enough to to you know cure people from original sin, right? And explain explain that to to the sinner how they contracted this. Baby doesn't ask any questions if he gets baptized, huh? What's the interesting for an adult? Only you know who's comes a Christian is baptized, huh? Have to explain to them what necessity of baptism and so on. A little different, yeah.

[2:26] That's what I told some young adult lady in her 20s who was getting ready to be baptized. and I gave her a little prayer book with an examination of conscience. Yeah. And I said, "well, I know that you know baptism wipes away all your sins, but you may have acquired bad habits. You want to correct those." So, examine your, learn how to examine your conscience.

[2:59] Moreover, the gift of Christ is greater than the sin of Adam, as the apostle himself says, Romans five. But the gift of Christ does not pass over to all men, and neither the sin of Adam.

[3:16] But against this is what the apostle says, Romans five: death passes over into all, in whom all have sinned. Right on there. thing we seen before.

[3:32] Hence, it should be said, huh? No, here's Thomas getting in trouble with the Blessed Virgin, right? Moreover, it should be said that according to the what Catholic faith firmly it should be held that all men apart from Christ alone, right? It's getting in trouble here, Thomas. Now, the guardian angel didn't didn't. No, his guardian angel did, but he didn't listen.

[4:08] That all men apart from Christ alone, right? Derive, from Adam, right? Contract original sin from him, right? Huh? Otherwise, not all would need redemption, which is through Christ, which is erroneous, right? Now, if you look at the definition of of of Mary there, that she's conceived what without original sin, right? Huh? And by special privilege, right? But through the merits of Christ, that she's what. She's redeemed by prevention.

[4:47] Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. And it reminds a little bit, you know, of something regarding the actual sin there, you know, where Saint Thérèse of Lisieux, you know, says, you know, that if you run down the path and you trip over the rock and he picks you up, that's nice of him to do that, right? But if he foresees that you might trip over the rock and runs down and takes the rock away before, right?

[5:10] That's even better, right? So I mean, in a sense, it's to him that you what. Preserve. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, that's what it says. That's what Thomas, you know, didn't see, you know. And I remember reading who's it who's the famous Dominican there that was was it the advisor of of Saint uh,

[5:37] Teresa of Avila, you know, huh? Panius. Yeah, yeah. They did that. they really thought, you know, at this time that there was no that you know this is kind of heretical, right, to say that the Blessed Virgin was what conceived in original sin original sin, right, huh? And. But you know Thomas, you know submitted all his works to the to the the church, right, for judgment, right.

[6:03] So this is this is for Thomas what Peter's denial is, right, Peter, right. I g I guess the dunts, right, Dunce Godas, right. Are. He's supposed to have been very influential in in developing this, wasn't he? The

[6:30] the the doctrine, yeah, yeah. So it's interesting. So there's some truth that to say that all needed redemption, which is through Christ, right. We can say Mary didn't need redemption because she didn't contract it, right? But through the merits of Christ, that she was preserved from contracting it.

[7:17] I think it's correct that she was redeemed, but in a more perfect way. than we have Yeah, yeah. I mean, redeem in some, you know, you have to. By way of prevention. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, it's not strictly speaking redeeming, then, right? Yeah. Okay, which was preserved from this by by the merits of Christ. That's explicitly in the in the thing. If you look at the at the at the official text, you know the thing.

[7:49] So when was the Immaculate Conception defined? When? Yeah. 1854? Mm-hmm. Pius the 9th. Was it Pius the 9th? Yeah. yeah. I think I saw in Rome, it's in one of the basilicas. I forget which one. the chair they sat in when he read the decree, Mm. Or or else or else there's a vestment that he wore. I forget which one. Yeah. Both. Yeah, Yeah.

[8:20] So that's after the time of De Koninck, you know, huh? I guess De Koninck, you know, when he's going to define when Pius XII is going to define the assumption, right? De Koninck had an audience with the Pope, you know.

[8:32] Of course, he argued for the fact, you know, that Thomas always says, you know, you know, Peter's not in heaven now, right? His soul is, right? But Peter's not there. Well then, Deconic was arguing, you know, Mary would not be in heaven if her soul was not. I mean, if her if her body was not there, right.

[8:53] He wants to impress the Pope, I don't know. That's just, that's the, that's the story I'm told, anyway. Was that, Was that a problem though for the Protestants, though? You know, when Pope the Ninth defined that, would think it would be, huh? It would just complicate things. for them Yeah. Yeah.

[9:23] Yeah. There's still a story about the guy saying, you know, I don't know. He says, you know, if they define that, I think I may have to leave. You know? And the guy says, "Don't worry," says he says, "You already left."

[9:42] You're already on the outside. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. But he's just Like like with papal infallibility, right? I think even Cardinal Newman didn't have some trouble with infallibility, you know. But then he didn't accept it once it was done. But but there's a lot of people who are who are upset by that. De Koninck says something interesting. I mentioned it before, you know, but but you know what they call the Marian century, right?

[10:21] Starting with Pius the Ninth and going through the Assumption, you know. Why why were these things being defined quite late? You might say in the history of the Church, right? Well, if they had been defined earlier, there would be confusion about Christ and Mary, you know. She'd be always, you know kind of a Mother God, so to speak, right? De Koninck had the position, you know, that the mysteries of Joseph, right, Were now redefined, right, more fully, right.

[10:50] Now that now that the ones about Mary are brought out fully, right? And again, for the same reason, you know, that you don't want to put Joseph on the same level as Mary, right? But you don't put Mary on the same level as as well Christ, right? You know. But you know that's kind of interesting, you know. So I kind of scrounge around there, little things of what's his name, John Paul II, has got something on Joseph, you know, and there things in in the popes, you know.

[11:19] But maybe there maybe there will be, you know. It was a good word, Brother. After a while, now Father Pius, Jesuit priest. I remember my mom was speaking about him years ago because he was one. He was a Jesuit from Chicago, and he was well known at the time of Humanae Vitae because he was defending the Church's position. Before he came up, everybody was saying, "Oh, it's going to change, it's going to change.

[11:40] and he kept saying, "No." Yeah. But he wrote a book, a big, large book. Actually, he wrote one book on Saint Joseph. He's such an expert on Saint Joseph, and Brother has this big anthology of a lot of different things about things from the fathers and all kinds. Very, very, that's very good. It's a little bit like with the Jews, you know, in the Old Testament, you know, that the mystery of the Trinity is not is fully revealed there as it is in the New Testament, right?

[12:10] And that if it was as fully revealed at that time, maybe it would give rise to what? Yeah, you know, you know the problem that the the Mohammedans have with us. They think we're polytheists, right? You know, they can't understand that. I mean,

[12:28] you have to reveal the mystery of the of the unity of God, right, first, right, before you the mystery of the Trinity, right. I always struck you about Thomas too. He takes up the substance of God. First, he takes up in the Summa Theologiae, right? It's the simplicity of God, right? And the perfection and goodness of God, and then the infinity of God, and as being present everywhere, then as being unchangeable, infinite, and then as being one.

[12:55] That's the last thing, right? Before you go into the the you know the operations of God and the Trinity, you know, it's like when he hit the idea, you know, from its one God, right? And you can see how people miss, you know, they're not ready for that, right? Maybe, huh? And you know how how the Jews there when was it Moses went up on the hill there, you know, and they got the golden thing out there, and even Aaron kind of went along with that, you know.

[13:23] And they had problems. If you go through the history of the Jews, there's times when they get involved in worship of of other the God of Isaac and Abraham and so on. You can kind of see the kind of the way God reveals these things gradually, so to speak, brings them to the forefront.

[13:46] It's kind of late in the history of the church. I mean, you know, for the decoration of the. Also, an argument to support that would be the impact surrounding culture upon the faith of the people within it. Yeah. And you can see in different parts of the world where certain things like corruption and infidelity, adultery, are much more commonly accepted, even though they are Catholic nations. That comes from the culture, and it has an impact on people's living out their faith.

[14:18] So this would be a support for what you're saying about the necessity of God revealing certain things at certain times, so as to establish certain understandings early on for building upon them and further revelations. You say that would be accurate. Yeah.

[14:37] Of course, some things are simply so hard to understand. You have to kind of be to do some gradually, you know, huh? Okay. So

[15:00] the reason for this can be taken from what has been said above, that just as from the sin of the first man is what transferred original what guilt to his posterity, right? Just as from the will of the soul through the motion of the what members is passed on actual sin to the what. Yeah. Something to say for them chopping off the heads of the hands of the thief, right?

[15:30] It is manifest, however, that actual sin is able to be passed on to all members, which are what naturally apt to be moved by the what will.

[15:46] Whence original guilt is passed on to all who are moved by Adam through the motion of what generation, right? It would be something what gratuitous, right? That it was not passed on, right? Because it would be natural to do that, right?

[16:06] What about this? Those who are alive, rather than dead, when Christ comes and the cross appears in heaven. The first, therefore, should be said that, probabilius, right, with more probability, and more commonly is held that all who are found in the advent of God die, right, and after just a little bit, right, post modicum, right, they rise up, as will be said more fully in the third book, when he talks about the the last things.

[16:41] If, however, that is true, which some say that they never what die, as Jerome narrates, right, the opinions of diverse people in a certain what epistle to what Minerius, whoever he is, about the resurrection of flesh.

[17:02] Nevertheless, it should be said to the argument that these, although they do not die, nevertheless in them there is the what. What do you call that? The death. Well, the guilt. The death is owed to them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Reatus. But the punishment is taken away by God, right? Who also is able to what?

[17:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so in Thomas's probabilius, he doesn't necessarily reject what Jerome is saying, right? Okay. I used to hear it said, you know, the

[17:44] quick death, you know. Okay. Death, where is thy victory? Well, yeah. Did Paul say something about we'll all be changed in the twinkling of an eye? There you go. There's some evidence. for it.

[18:06] Now, to the second, it should be said that original sin is taken away by baptism. The what that you're subject to it, right? Huh. In so far as the soul recovers grace as regards what the spiritual part, the the ratio the mens doesn't mean just the reason, but the will. There remains, nevertheless, original sin in act as regards the what the the fomes and the sexual powers.

[18:40] Which is a disorder of the lower parts of the soul and of the body, what itself, by which a man what generates and not according to his what his mind, okay. And therefore, those who are baptized, right, even though their soul is purified, they pass on original sin because there's still corruption in the flesh.

[19:08] For they do not generate insofar as they are what renewed by baptism, but insofar as retain still something of the oldness of the first sin, huh? Okay.

[19:26] So I was talking to this young man on the phone today, you know. And I said he's quite excited about his his little boy, you know. I said we're going to have to bring him down for us to see him, you know, and so. But

[19:40] Rosie was just making a have a little blanket for the new born, you know. So didn't quite finish it yet, but. To third, it should be said that just as the sin of Adam, right, is passed on to all who are generated bodily from Adam, right, so the grace of Christ is passed on to all who are spiritually generated, right, by faith and baptism, huh? Not only to removing the guilt of the first parent, but also removing all what sins.

[20:18] So you delay your baptism till you're ready to go, right? I guess that's what they say. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. This question that if clothing ever becomes possible might apply. So he formed miraculously from human flesh. Yeah. Is that brand or something? Well, that's an extraordinary. That's an extraordinary. I

[20:47] mean, yeah, yeah, okay. Also removing all actual sins and introducing one to what glory, right? Okay. We take a little break here now. We're going to four. To the fourth one goes forward. Thus, it seems that if someone were formed miraculously from human flesh, he would what? Contract original sin, huh? I can't tell anybody he's going to take the other opposite side, right,

[21:31] huh? For it is said, the gloss said, right, huh? Stained from Augustine, Genesis four, that in the what? Loins of Adam. Loins of Adam, right? The whole posterity was corrupted, right, huh?

[21:54] Because it was not separated before in the place of life and afterwards in the place of what? But if some man were thus formed, as has been said, huh? His flesh would be separated in the place of what? Yeah. Therefore, he would contract what? Original sin, huh? So, is he referring here, to miraculous formation like from the dust of the earth the way Adam was

[22:23] Yeah, or or like even like you, I mean, was you know from the rib of of him, right? Rather, rather than by generation. Moreover, original sin is caused in us in so far as the soul is infected from the flesh, huh? But the whole flesh of man is infected, right?

[22:47] As as Falstaff says, I I get more flesh than anybody else, so. Yeah. Therefore, from whatever part of the flesh man is formed, the soul is infected by the infection original sin, huh? Flesh, wars against the spirit. Moreover,

[23:13] original sin from the first parent comes to all, in so far as all, right, in him sinning were, right. But those who are formed from human flesh were in what? Adam. Adam. Therefore, original sin. Therefore, they contract original sin.

[23:35] But against this is because what? They were not in Adam according to a seed-like reason, huh? Which only, which alone causes the passing of original sin, as Augustine says in the tenth book On Genesis to the Letter, huh? What a guy this Augustine was, huh?

[24:08] Answer: It should be said that as has been said already, original sin is passed over from the first parent to their posterity, insofar as they are moved by him, by generation.

[24:26] Just as this using this proportion all the time, right? Just as the members of the body are moved by the soul to actual sin, right? So he's making a proportion there, right? Fourth tool dialectic, right?

[24:46] But there is not motion to generation except through the active power in what generation? Whence those alone contract original sin who descend from Adam, right? By the what active power derived from Adam by origin, huh? Generation, which is according to the seed-like reason to descend from him, huh?

[25:20] For the seed, seedian reason, huh? Is nothing other than the active power in what generation? If ever someone were formed by divine power from human flesh, it is manifest that the active power would not have been derived from what Adam, whence he would not contract original sin.

[25:49] So we can figure out a way of getting something from. Yeah, yeah. We had to kind of coerce God to do it, but. we don't have the power Just as neither does the act of the hand pertain to what human sin, if the hand is not moved by the will of man, but by some what? Yeah.

[26:16] Yeah, but can it? God wouldn't be compelled to create this new being in grace, right? Yeah, but he's not talking about that so much as the fact that he would not contract original sin, right? And this he.

[26:40] Yeah. He would be that man that said, "Yeah, I think that's true. You could have, I guess, like a state of pure nature. Yeah. If if if God would make a new being that was purely natural, then

[26:55] they wouldn't have original sin. That's right. Because in other words, in a sense, mind not having original justice, right? Is a privation or lack in the strict sense, right? Because it's something I should have, right? Because it was given to Adam to be passed on with nature, right? So it's a real privation or lack, right? It's not just a a negation.

[27:26] So it's the frontiers of science are pushed forward in a level of ways, and if human cloning ever comes about, obviously it's not God creating this clone of a human being, but where does that cloned being stand with regard to original sin? Yeah. Again, you have to make use of some of the the generative power of somebody, right, to produce, right, even a clone, right? I guess it depends on how widely you would define that generative power.

[28:03] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because it's not in our part produce the soul, right? And it has to somehow, of course, God's doing. But there's the nature.

[28:18] Yeah, yeah. But I mean, how are you going to do that? Good question. You know, even when the question arises, you know, about the soul there, like in adultery, some of the sort, right? Huh? And says God, you know, you know, cooperating with the with the sin of adultery. No, He's cooperating with nature, though, right? Huh? And so, if a human body is being produced, right, then God will cooperate at that, right?

[28:46] That's at the root of why Paul the sixth said sterilization, direct sterilization can't be permitted. I say even in cases where they treat a disease, the effect of sterilization can be tolerated, so long as that effect is not directly intended for any reason whatsoever. Yeah, yeah. Because we don't have dominion. Because God is involved in that. Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm struck by the fact, you know, that the two chief mysteries of our faith are the the Trinity and the Incarnation, right?

[29:21] And both of them, you have a birth, right? Generation. You have the you know the birth of God, the Son from God, the Father, and then you have you know Christ, right, there from Mary, right? And so you you know how terrible really abortion really is, right? Going against you know not only our nature but against the two supreme articles of our faith, right? That are involved in the Trinity, understanding the Trinity and the first two persons, right?

[29:49] And then the incarnation of Christ there from Mary, right? This born of Mary. Really terrible. These symbols are so incredibly powerful and resonating throughout. Human culture throughout the ages, even when those cultures depart from God, you can see this in so many of these powerfully influential science fiction stories and fiction stories where you have aliens which are standing for sort of gods, and almost so frequently, especially in the fifties and sixties, somehow these aliens would either try to meld a human being with an alien, and that would be born this monstrosity, or then you have these fantasy stories about somebody who's born sort of Christ-like, but they're not Christ-like, and that everything is kind of up to them, and they do they wield their special

[30:42] powers as they will. But this motif, this symbol, is so powerful, and yet it's been so corrupted that helps take us away from God, de-Christianizes us in certain ways. It's a big movie coming out now about Noah too. I guess. Not Noah, not Noah, I mean Moses. I think it was going to be kind of a crazy thing. I don't know. I just kind of saw a review of it the other day.

[31:06] You know what they say, Yeah Jesus saves, but Moses... invests Sorry can't resist Sorry Okay. We are to objections, not right? Do you have objections? To the first, it should be said that Adam was not in the place of exile except after his sin. Whence is not an account of the place of exile but an account of the sin that original guilt is what passed over to us, huh?

[31:56] To or to those rather that his act of generation arrives at right. So that's kind of funny that first objection. Um. To second, should be said that flesh does not infect the soul except in so far as it is the active principle in generation. Huh? It's the idea that's moving it, right?

[32:20] And the same reply to the third. To the third, it should be said that the one who was formed from human flesh was in Adam according to what bodily substance, but not according to what?

[32:35] Yeah, to seedlike reason, and therefore he would not contract original sin. Huh? It's got to be moved by him, right? Huh? In a way like the hand is moved by the the will, huh? Yeah. Now this one that they asked the bishop there.

[33:00] To the first one precedes us. It's kind of funny how we had the two brothers of the bishop, right? They they both taught at my high school, right? So I had one of them for Latin, you know, and the other one taught something else. But eventually ran for office, became mayor of Saint Paul. Yeah, all all of these guys, the bishop's brother, got a vote for him.

[33:21] Even though he's Democrat. To the fifth, then one precedes us. It seems that if Adam had not sinned, but Eve sinning, right? The sons would contract original sin,

[33:56] right? Well, original sin is we contract from our parents, right? Insofar as we were what In them in them, huh? I didn't know it was in my mom and daddy. I guess it was, huh? Somewhere it was in them, right? One sense we have Yeah. According to that of the apostle Romans five, in whom all sinned right?

[34:20] He's referring to Adam not Eve Yeah Probably? But just as a man pre-exists in his father, so also in his what mother. Therefore, from the sin of the mother, man would contract original sin, just as from the sin of the what father, right? Huh? That's equal rights for you Yeah.

[34:49] Moreover, if Eve had sinned, Adam not sinning, right? Huh? The sons would be born what? Equal to suffer and die Immortal. For the mother gives matter in generation, right? Okay. Now again, here you know, you know they call the male substance their semen, right? Which actually comes from the word for seed, right? Huh? So in in Aristotle's thinking, the whole seed comes from the what father, right?

[35:25] I don't think that the modern biologist thinks that, right? That the the whole seed comes partly from the man, partly from the woman, right? I guess the man determines what's going to be a boy or a girl, right? So Henry VIII is kind of punishing the wrong person, right? He's responsible for getting nothing but daughters, right? In the fourth, what? I've heard that said. Yeah, I've heard that said Yeah.

[35:47] there's something peculiar About a man who only generates daughters Yeah, yeah. See, Aristotelian idea was, you know, of course that the agent makes was like itself, right? So that the the man intends what to generate another male, right? Huh? And there's kind of the defect, right? Huh? But you get the other right. So I remember when I was when some student there when I was in college there, he was married and they just had a you know baby, right?

[36:16] And he was telling my teacher Kasurik, about, it, you know, that he was a boy. He said, you'd be glad to know, Aristotle says that it designates shows perfection to the male principal, you know. So I thought the guy knew what he was talking about, but.

[36:33] If I thought I was sending this to my student, I'd talk him on the phone, you know, because he didn't come up show up Tuesday, you know, because and I thought I thought we'd you know change some weeks we're meeting on Thursday, some Tuesday depending, and I thought maybe he got mixed up or something, you know, and I didn't want him to show up tonight because we're going out to somebody's house, and so I called him up and then I found out that they had the baby on Tuesday, right?

[36:57] So no wonder he got distracted from my class. If I thought it, you know, you may have the quaint Aristotle. Shows perfection in the male.

[37:08] You can write it in the card. Yeah, yeah. But death in all what undergoingness comes from the necessity of what matter, huh? But undergoing and the necessity of dying are the punishment of original sin. Therefore, if Eve had sinned, Adam not sinning, the sons would contract original sin.

[37:42] Moreover, Damascene says in the third book that the Holy Spirit, right, came before in the Virgin, of whom Christ was what to be born without original sin. Purging him, huh? Hey, what's this? Damascene is he in trouble too at the? Because

[38:03] the idea that she was, you know, just like I guess John the Baptist was was cleansed in the womb, right? Huh? And so they thought that Mary was, you know. So I don't know. Damascene's in trouble here too, huh? I don't know about these guys.

[38:23] But that purgation would not be necessary if the infection original sin was not what drawn from the mother, because he didn't have a human father, right? Okay. But the infection original sin is drawn from the mother. And thus Eve sinning, his, her sons, I guess, would contract original sin, even if Adam had not sinned. Huh? That's a pretty good argument, huh? Okay.

[39:05] But again, This is what the apostle says, Romans five twelve. Through one man sin came into this world, huh? Now it'd be more to be said that to two, it came in, since both sinned, or more through the woman, right? Who first sinned, right? If the woman transmitted original sin to the offspring, therefore original sin is not derived in the sons from the mother, but from the what?

[39:36] Father, right? Huh? The bishop said. Huh. Answer should be said that the solution of this doubt is apparent from the things went before. I mean, not to us, but was to Thomas, right?

[39:55] For it has been said above that original sin is carried over from the first parent, in so far as he himself moves them to what? Yeah, he moves to the generation of the born.

[40:12] Whence it is said, it has been said, huh, in the previous article, right? That if he was generated materially only from human flesh, he would not contract what? Original sin. Now it is manifest, according to the teaching of the philosophers, but not according to the teaching of biologists, that the active principle in generation is from the father, the matter, the mother, what? Yeah. See, I say we mentioned for the word semen means seed there in Greek.

[40:47] Get the word seminar and so on. Seminal idea, right? Huh? And mater, mater is, where you get the word materia, right? Huh? So kind of you know the first thought about matter was in the poets before the philosophers was Mother Earth, right? Huh? And even Shakespeare says about Timon of Athens digging the ground, common mother thou, whose womb immeasurable, an infinite breast teems and feeds all, right?

[41:21] So in that word semen and in the word mater, right? You kind of see this way that they thought a little more simply, right? Huh?

[41:33] Whence original sin was not contracted from the would not be contracted from the mother, but from the what? The father. And according to this, if Adam not sinning, Eve never had sinned. The what?

[41:50] Yeah, going back to the active power, right? But if conversely, if Adam had sinned and Eve had not sinned, they would still be contracted, right? So, with the knowledge of modern biology, do we have to change this? Well, we might want to, you know, think about a little bit.

[42:11] Forgive me for mentioning this, but back when I was in law school, there was a woman student who was reading an article in a newspaper section of our library. Yeah. There was an article about the possibility of two women being able to, without male intervention, have children through technology, and she was just very enthused about that. And so, again, theologically, we're looking at cutting-edge trends in the crazy culture.

[42:42] And God forbid this were ever to happen. Theologically, that would bring up some questions like, well, you know, if these two women get together and somehow. have a kid does It have original sin. We need to baptize that egg. Just a different. Yeah, yeah. So I think even the modern biologists on the sperm is more active in a sense than than the egg, right? But with that, you know, you know, quite a little bit of

[43:18] fancy footwork. Yeah, a little bit, yeah, yeah. Because the reasoning seems to be based on, I mean, the reasoning seems to be based on the active principle of man, right? Yeah. In generation, but it still, some of these still is that, right? Huh? Especially if it determines the sex, you know, huh? Still is more active, you know, huh? But the woman is not as passive as. Aristotle thought, right?

[43:42] I th I think you know, the e, even the menstrual thing. I think they they thought that that was what was you could get pregnant with that, right? Huh? Because the blood was there, right? Huh? You know, and was not, you know, that that's kind of the removing what what what was going to be disposing was not disposing it from it for it. It's it's the corruption of it, really.

[44:10] Okay. So the first, therefore, should be said that in the father the son pre-exists in an active principle, but in the mother, as in a material principle, in a passive one, right? Huh. Okay. Hence, there is not a similar reason, right? Okay.

[44:32] The second should be said that seems to some that Eve sinning, if Adam had not sinned, the sons would be immune from what guilt, huh? But they would nevertheless undergo the necessity of dying, and other undergoings, arriving to the necessity of matter, which the mother what administers, huh? But not under the what. Yeah. But as what? Natural defect. Yeah. But this does not seem suitable, convenient, for immortality and impassibility of the first status was not from the condition of matter, but from original what justice, to which the body was subject to the what soul, in so far as the soul was subject to what God, huh?

[45:26] But the defect of original justice is original sin, right? Um. If therefore Adam not sinning, original sin would not be transferred to his posterity on account of the sin of Eva, It is manifest that in those sons there would not be the defect of original sin. Original sin. Original justice, whence there would not be in them this suffering and and necessity of dying, right? Huh? Okay. You you could say you know even today you know that that

[46:08] most of the matter of the baby comes from the mother, right? Huh? Because the man gets through with his act, it's very small, right? Huh? And so all the the matter, so she's more the matter of it than the the father, right? Huh? And

[46:26] she's more active in, you might say, the nourishment and growth, but the generation maybe that's where more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I I used to when I talked a little bit sometimes about the difference between men and women, and I said that

[46:42] the man sees the child more as a continuation of himself than the woman does, right? And a sign of that is that the the man is more apt to make the mistake, you might say, right? Huh? Of trying to force the son, so to speak, or persuade him to follow his own occupation, right? So if the father's a doctor, you might want the son to be a doctor.

[47:06] If the father was a law, you might want the son to be a lawyer, right? That's the kind of tendency, right? Huh? And where the mother sees the child is more a what fulfillment of herself as a woman, right? Huh? That's more like matter, right? Because matter sees what form as its perfection or fulfillment, right? But the agent of the mover sees the form as what a continuation of of of himself, right?

[47:35] And that seems to be that, you know. I remember my father, you know. I think my father kind of understood these things pretty well, you know. But he was telling me one time of his business friend, right? I think I told you the story, didn't I, before? But his business friend had sent his son out to Amherst, right, which is kind of prestigious school out here in the East Coast, you know.

[47:59] And his son wasn't really cut out to you know follow his father's footsteps, right? He wasn't even fit to be in college, really. He flunked out his first year at Amherst, right? So here he's coming back, you know. What happened to all the dreams of his father? Right? He's going to get into Amherst and get him into all that thing, and and follow his his father's footsteps, right?

[48:25] Huh? And I guess he came back, and father said, "What do you really want? " He wanted a filling station, right, a gasoline station. And and yeah, his father could could put him into you know could buy him a gasoline station, set him up in that thing, you know. And I think my father was saying that, you know, he saw kind of the wisdom of the man, right, that he realized he couldn't really.

[48:49] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know myself and my father's company there. You know, we work in the summer. You know, in the factory there. You know, so on. And my father would come through sometimes with a business friend. You know, the business friend would see me down working. You know, in the shop. You know, in the factory downstairs. Ah, learning it from the ground up, he says. And and because every time we don't mind.

[49:12] I wonder what my father was thinking. You know, because your father doesn't always say you know what he thinks. You know, you know, is he disappointed that nobody's been a, you know. And the only thing I remember my father saying you know later on was I think you're going to have a better life than I had. You know, because you had a rough life. And my father, you know, there was no high school in town.

[49:29] You know, he had to work his way through high school and all those things. And you can see that you know, especially the professor was kind of the easy life, the good life compared to you know the hard work he had to do. You know. So, but I think there's there's a you know I think if my father was telling this story about his business friend there, they said that he was smarter.

[49:49] You know, that they tried to you know push us into something that we were not. None of us really wanted to. end up with three philosopher, sons, right? It's kind of funny because my my father and my uncle, my uncle, his son was a philosopher too. You know, he and my brother Richard were, you know, senior. And they both went to philosophy and so on. I guess my my one year my father and my uncle there they decided to take a course in philosophy with with my professor Kasirik, right?

[50:20] You know, and he is a course on Marxism. You know, sounds kind of interested. You know, and so on. Yeah, and it's kind of funny, you know, the way these things are, because you know they had uh a consortium among all the colleges in the Twin Cities there. You know, and they used to have you know maybe maybe this year would be Russia or maybe this year would be France, right?

[50:44] And they'd have you know professors from four or five different colleges teaching, like so. This year it was Russia, right? You know, they have some guy who who knew you know Dostoevsky and and Tolstoy and so on, teaching you know Russian literature, and someone else would be a historian teaching Russian history. You know, and then they have some philosophy teaching. You know, Marxism because that was the official philosophy in Russia at the time.

[51:10] Kasirik was on on is on educational TV, right? They would carry some of his courses, right? So so so when you explain Marx, you you suddenly explain what Marx thinks. You know, so you talk in in the person of Marx. You know, so to speak, of how Marx. You know, and somebody calls off the station. What is a, Catholic from a Catholic college teaching Marxism for? You know, all kinds of misunderstandings.

[51:34] You know, so I don't know how much my uncle and my father got from Kasirik on Marxism. You know, but but this is not he was not in that that program. I mean, you know, but but.

[51:53] That's exactly what the classes are about, you know. Yeah. I remember one time I was when I was first reading Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, right? You know, a beautiful passage in there, you know, and I memorized it. You know, must not follow those advice as being men to think of human things and being mortal to immortal things. We must so far as possible, you know, you know, know the immortal and so on and so on.

[52:23] And those of my father, what are you doing there? And sorry, said anything, you know, you know, in a way, kind of, you know, kind of, kind of impressed, you know, kind of, you know, no, but, but I mean, I think there is a tendency for a father to try to get his son to what follow his footsteps, you know, huh? You know, take all these bushes that became, you know, presidents or governors, you know, huh? You know, when when uh one son is the governor of Texas, the other one is governor of Florida.

[52:58] You know, so I mean, there's, there's a tendency of a father to kind of kind of force the son into his footsteps, right? So, because the father sees the son more as a what continuation of himself, right? I think a son naturally feels that way, you know. No, even after my father died, you know, I was talking to my cousin and he said that's just like your father, you know.

[53:22] I said what? But I mean, I just imitate my father or something. The way you know, they had a business like approach to philosophy or something. I don't know, but I mean, but but yeah. But I remember, you know, being you know pleased in my mind, you know, you know that that was like my my father in some way, you know. So I mean, a son likes to see that, right?

[53:45] Huh? You know, if your if your father, you know, was was on the football team or the basketball team or something, you know, the son likes to kind of follow in the father, and and the father rejoices in that, you know. So, but that that the idea the father is more like a mover or a maker, right? Huh? So he sees the son as a continuation of his father, right?

[54:07] Huh? I think that's why too sometimes the father makes mistakes. You know, he wants a son. He's got to have a son, right? That's kind of a joke, you know, sometimes the father has all kinds of daughters, and he keeps on, "Another daughter, " you know. He says, don't go that way. So he says, "Don't go that way. So, you know, but I get a kick out of one of my neighbors there.

[54:27] You know, doesn't have any son. He has a couple of daughters, I guess, but but he's very attached to his daughter, right? Huh? I see him. I see him in the morning. He's always watching. You know, till she gets on the bus. You know, to make sure that she's on her safety and so on. But I see him sometimes out there playing catch with her, right? You know, like a father with his son.

[54:47] And I kind of amused at this, you know, you know, but the daughter seems to enjoy it, and he enjoying playing catch with her, you know, and and she's kind of you know sunbathing for for a boy in a sense, you know. It's it's very pleasing sight to see, you know. It's just you know, and she's a wonderful girl because I know when she comes home in the afternoon, if I'm out to mow the lawn she'd say hello, how are you, Mr.

[55:08] Berquist? And? She's a very nice girl, you know. But you can kind of see something, you know, of it's kind of like she's sunbathing for for the boy by playing catch with her father, you know. And she does a good good job doing it, you know. Just why the mother, you know, sees you know that the son as a what kind of a fulfillment of herself, you know, the offspring in general, right?

[55:35] Just like matter being perfected by form, you know. Interesting. I mean, there is a lot of truth there, you know. That the the mother is like the the matter, right? And most of the matter of the child does come from the mother, right? But the father is just a maker, right? He's he's hardly the matter of it, right? There is not not much matter at all that he gives, right?

[55:57] it's mainly as a form. But you see, it's no more complicated as we say now, right? Okay. So the reply to the first objection then: in patre preexisted filius as in an active principle, right? But in the mother as in a material beginning, right? In the passive, right? There's some truth that even now, right? Even despite our advancement.

[56:31] Okay, we saw the reply to the second objection, I think, didn't we? And the third one. To the third, it should be said that that purgation, going before in the Blessed Virgin, is not required to taking away the transfusion original sin.

[56:50] But because it's necessary that the Mother of God, what? Cleaned to maximum purity. Yeah. For something is not a suitable, worthy receptacle of God except it be what? Pure Yeah. Why don't go all the way then, Thomas. Okay. You wonder how how how when Thomas was informed about the definition, right? When he closes his eyes in death, his guardian angel says, "you've got something to learn." Yeah, yeah.

[57:25] Well, you see, what about about our Lord? How he brought it into the thing and Bene scripsisti de me Thoma, you know, I went to the College of Saint Thomas, and they have in the center there this statue of Saint Thomas there you know and under his Bene scripsisti Thoma you know, huh But he didn't go to the Blessed Virgin, but and she said You've written well, Thomas, so a little oversight on Thomas', part huh

[57:55] Okay. Holiness befits the house of God, right? huh? Yeah He's the house of God. Okay. is it a good time to stop Okay.