Prima Secundae
204. Mortal Sin and Eternal Punishment: Aquinas on Aversion, Conversion, and the Beginning of Order (Q. 87, aa. 3–5)
Class of 2015-02-19
https://berquistcourse.com/course/theology/11-prima-secundae/204-mortal-sin-and-eternal-punishment-aquinas-on-aversion-conversion/

[0:00] Whether some sin induces or brings about the what? obligated, we said before, right? Huh? I think we often had a sense of what being accused of something, right? Accused of something, but it's a little strange way to translate that. It is accused in English.

[0:23] The third one goes forward. Thus, it seems that no sin induces one to merit. Let's put that way. Use the word merit there. Eternal punishment, huh?

[0:38] For punishment, for a just punishment, must be what? Equal to the what? Guilt. For justice is a what? Equality. Yeah. So that's interesting, huh? The word just as a sense of equal, right? And even when you use it in other contexts, and we say it just fits. What does that mean? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You move from one place to another, you know. Wonder if they can fit the bed in or fit the sofa in or something.

[1:12] Ah, just fits, you know. But same with clothing, right? Huh? Shoe just fits. Just right. It's the idea of equality, right? Huh? Well, whence

[1:32] it is said in Isaiah 27, in measure against measure, right? What's the name of Shakespeare's play? Measure. of measure. Yeah, Yeah. So the man is condemned one man for the very thing that what he later on is guilty of, right? Same punishment.

[1:58] Okay. Eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, right? But sin is something temporal. Therefore, it cannot lead into the what guilt of eternal eternal punishment, huh? And this is something very hard for people to see, right? It seems like God is kind of a mean guy, you know. Why did he create you? You know, you end up that way.

[2:27] Moreover, punishments are certain medicines, right? As is said in the second book of the Ethics. But no medicine ought to be infinite. Because it is ordered to some end. But what is ordered to an end is not infinite. The contrary terms there, right? Finis and infinitum, huh? As the philosopher says in the first book of the Politics. Therefore, no punishment ought to be infinite.

[3:07] Moreover, no one always does something unless he delights in it for its own sake. But God does not delight in the loss, perdition of men, right? As is said in Wisdom one. Therefore, He would not punish men by an eternal punishment.

[3:32] Moreover, nothing that is infinite is infinite. But punishment is infinite, for it is not in accordance with the nature of the one who is punished. Therefore, it cannot last forever.

[3:49] Well, I'm convinced, aren't you? Doesn't take much to convince me, a dimwit like me. But against this is what is said in Matthew twenty-five. These will go into eternal punishment. I guess our Lord says this, right? It's the book I was reading, you. Valuable book. How many chapters are there, by the way, in Matthew? Now, what's the symbolism of twenty-eight? It's a perfect number. isn't it Perfect number.

[4:26] Yeah. Yeah. I mentioned how Thomas begins in their first book of the Summa Contra Gentiles, the consideration perfection of God in chapter what? Yeah. Perfect number, right? That's not by chance, is it?

[4:47] No, he told me they divided the Gospels back into the chapters, The University of Paris in the Middle Ages. Those guys are subtle guys. You never know what they're up to, huh? But that is the what? That's not the logical and understandable division of Matthew, huh?

[5:05] So, it's the logical and understandable? division. That's the editorial and what reference division we call it, huh? So, you divide it into twenty-eight chapters, and each chapter into a number of verses. That's the editorial and reference division. What's a logical and understandable division of Matthew?

[5:28] Into three, yeah. Okay. John is into two, but Matthew's into three, yeah. And Thomas quotes this great guy quote earlier, Gregory, right, huh? Okay. Because Gregory says that in the four animals there, the man represents what? Matthew. Yeah. Okay. The eagle represents. Yeah. The ox represents. Luke. Yeah, because he's priest, or

[6:01] bark is the lion. Yeah. okay, The lion and the tribe of Judah. Now. So, as man, he came into the world, right? And that's what you talk about in the first and second chapter. Then he proceeded through the world, huh? Teaching, and that's chapters what three through twenty. And then went out of the world, and that's chapters 21 and 28. That's theological, and, understandable division, right?

[6:36] Okay. And in Mark chapter three verse twenty nine, it said, "He who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, right, will not have remission in aeternum, but he will be what subject to eternal what punishment, huh? Kind of funny the way they use the word in there, don't they? Sometimes, they have that Yeah. Yeah Okay

[7:27] Well is Thomas going to untie these knots. Good luck, Thomas. I was reading in Thomas this morning there where he said that God has no idea evil.

[7:59] Say, gee whiz, you know, I could I could argue, you know, like Aristotle argues against, Empedocles right? His position, you know, means that we know something God doesn't know, right? That's laughable, Aristotle, that we know something God doesn't know, right? So God has no idea of evil. What the heck?

[8:23] You get pictures of somebody scheming. Well, how can I use this against God? How can I get some advantage out of it? It forces

[8:39] you to go back to the definition of what an idea is in God, right? What Augustine is talking about. There's no idea of evil, God. That's the equivocation there too, even over there, use of the word "idea" in English, but.

[9:06] Okay, I'll let you think about that. I answer: Should be said as has been said above that sin from this brings in right or leads into the what?

[9:32] Merit of punishment, right? Okay. That it perverts some what order, but the cause remaining, the effect what remains. Whence, so long as the perverseness of the order remains, it is necessary that there remains the what. Yeah.

[10:04] But someone perverts an order sometimes in a way that can be what repaired, huh? But sometimes in a way that is not able to be repaired, huh?

[10:20] Now always the defect by which is what is irreparable. If, however, one says the beginning by its power, a defect is able to be what repaired.

[10:45] See why the sin against the Holy Spirit, right, is spoken of as being irreparable? Just as if is corrupted the principal what for seeing, right? There cannot come about a reparation of vision, right? Except by what power? If, however, the seeing principle is saved by some but some impediments, right, coming to the eye, they are able to be repaired either by nature or by what? Right.

[11:27] Now of any order there is some what beginning, some principle through which someone becomes a partaker of that order, right? That's interesting, huh? Where does Aristotle first talk about what order is?

[11:56] Yeah, in the twelfth chapter of the Categories, right? And I always begin there because there he distinguishes in order, right, huh? The senses of what before, huh? And therefore the senses of after, right? And therefore the senses of order, which means before and what after, right? And you know my favorite question I used to love to torture my students with. You know I have a cruel streak in me, you know.

[12:25] In what sense of before does one sense of before come before another sense of before? And it's what sets the four central senses he gives.

[12:48] First sense of before is in time, right, huh? The second sense is in being when this can be without that, but not vice versa. Alongside of that is the sense which is the cause before the effect. In the third sense of before is in the discourse of what, reason, right? And in the fourth sense is better. So what sense? What sense of before does one sense of before come before another sense of before?

[13:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we name things as we know them, right? That's the principle that Thomas gives. and therefore the order in naming follows the order in what? Yeah, in knowing, yeah, yeah. And so you begin with the sense of before in time, right? Huh? Because that's tied up with what? Motion. Motion is the number of the before and after in motion. And as my friend William Shakespeare says, "Things in motion sooner catch the eye, than what not stirs, you know.

[13:52] If you want to get somebody's attention, you you wave or something, right? " So the students down there, right? That was I told you the joke about the the seminary education the old days, you know, very authoritative, you know. And the student wanted the professor to answer the question, right? So he's waving his hand, then further the professor finally he couldn't ignore anymore. He says, "What's your question?

[14:14] " I know he said, "Yeah, I don't think we've been introduced. " He said. Or the other one was yeah, Or he says he asks the question, he gets the question off, and they get back up with a text. and he says, "doesn't say. " That's kind of a joke. Just repeat the book, right?

[14:51] But some people can't even repeat the book, right, or repeat the lecture, right? I go up to Laval and it's you know when I was at Assumption I got the Thanksgiving time, Easter break or something, and I turn to some students, "What's Dion talking about these days? " And they start talking. I'm sure It's not what Dion said, you know. They can't even repeat the the lecture, you know.

[15:25] Okay. But when Aristotle gets to the fifth book of wisdom, right, huh? He takes up the words used in wisdom, right? And in the axioms, and to some extent everywhere because they're being very common, and he begins with what word?

[15:46] Yeah, beginning. Yeah. And then later on, when he takes up the word "before" in the what? An order, therefore, in the fifth book, right? He recalls the common notion of beginning, right? Why does he do that? Well, because he sees the connection, right? That every order has some beginning that is the source of the order, huh? So he's a good Aristotelian when he says,

[16:14] "if every order there is some what beginning, which someone becomes a partaker of that what order, right? And therefore, if by sin is corrupted the beginning of the order, by which the will of man is subject to God, there will be a disorder that of itself is irreparable, although it could be repaired by the divine what power. Now the beginning of this order is the last end.

[16:54] That's a common thing that Aristotle talks about, right? Okay. And Aristotle is always distinguishing these two orders, right? The order of parts to each other and the order of the whole to its end, right? So say the end of the chair is what sitting, right? And because of the order to sitting, then the parts have an order to each other, right? And the reason why this comes in at a slightly obtuse angle is that it's comfortable to sit in, right?

[17:28] huh? If it came in at an acute angle. you'd have a broken back, you know. Nobody sit in it Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I always say, you know, I have a chair where you can go all the way back to the back leg, right now. You have a chair where where you can't, you know, your legs, you you kind of, you know, then your your your back gets out of whack, you know.

[17:52] So I always get a chair that's properly ordered the parts, but ordered properly to what? Yeah. The angle of repose. Yeah. And then, um uh what kind of when you give his public lectures, you always sit down. You know, sit more relaxed, just sit down, right? And he likes to sit down.

[18:16] The Cretan story is quote: the man sitting becomes wise. Homo sedens fit sapiens, right? Well, he translates it, the man sitting makes wisdom. Because this Latin was worse than mine. So,

[18:33] yeah, yeah. Aristotle when he talks about you know the whole universe, right? He says that the order of the universe is for the sake of what God, right? So he's the exterior end, just like sitting is exterior to the chair, right? But the order of the parts of the chair is an account of the order of the chair to sitting, right? And so the order of what the universe is an account of the order of the universe to God, right?

[18:59] So God is the beginning of these things. So the end of this order is the last end to which man adheres by what charity, by the love of God. So this is extremely important. This love of God. And if you lose that, you go against that love of God. Then you what you've lost the beginning of the whole order, right? And therefore, whatever sins turn away from God, taking away what caritatem afferentia of themselves, right, lead us into an eternal what punishment because of themselves are irreparable.

[19:45] There's no beginning to go back to. You've lost the beginning, right? Be Like the philosopher losing the axioms, right? If he didn't know longer, you know Aristotle talks you know in the third. The third book there about the principle of contradiction, right? If you give this up, you've given up everything, right? If you lost that, right? Yeah, think something that both be and not be, right? Same time.

[20:19] Just go back to sleep Yeah. So it's the only alternatives they turn Says the onion turns the turns the life of the vegetable, right? Because even the animal makes some distinction between you know hot and cold and hard and soft and so on.

[20:39] I told you a story about the we had these two cats in the house, right? Tabitha and her daughter Moppet there, and there was a place there, comfortable place to take a snooze that Tabitha liked to go and take a snooze. And one time, Moppet went there and was laying down there, and Tabitha went up to you know, going to have that nice sleep and so on, and she sees Moppet there, and all she did was.

[21:05] That's good. He expressed her disposition. That's kind of a. Yeah, what are you doing, Mandy? It's all kind of funny, you know. All the human, you know, these these animals. Okay. So what kind of sins? What do they call those sins that destroy the the beginning?

[21:41] Mortal, yeah, yeah. It's like they're taking away the principle of what of life, right? So they end up in death, right? Okay. To the first, therefore, it should be said that punishment is proportional to sin according to its what? Yeah. Both in divine judgment as well as in human judgment, he's saying, right? As Augustine says, who is this Augustine? He's quoting all the time. As Augustine says in the twenty-first book about the city of God, in no judgment is it required that a punishment be equal to guilt according to what duration.

[22:43] For not because adultery or homicide is committed in a moment, and a this a momentaneous punishment. Yeah, Is he punished with a moment Yeah and kind of this should be punished by momentaneous. Putting it right, huh? Okay. Didn't take me long to kill the man, right? So, by punishment, should be no longer than time took me to kill him, right? But sometimes by a perpetual what imprisonment, right?

[23:14] Exile. Or exile, right? And sometimes also by what death, right? In which is not considered the what time of the, kid of the killing but rather, yeah. But rather that what he should be taken away forever from the society of the what living, and thus represents in its own way the eternity of the punishment inflicted divine.

[23:48] For it's just as Augustine, as Gregory says, huh? And that who has sinned in his own eternity, right? Against God, would be punished in the eternity of what God.

[24:06] For someone is said in his own eternity to have sinned, not only according to the continuation of the act and the whole what life of man, huh? His life during, but because from this that he constitutes his end or his purpose in this what sin, having the will of what? Yeah. Now, listening to this opera called Don Giovanni, right? You know what happens to him, right? Yeah, yeah.

[24:41] He can't repent, right? His will is fixed on sexual pleasure, you might say, right? Okay. So down he goes to hell, right? Huh? They did a a film one time of the whole Don Giovanni there from the Vienna State Opera, you know, and you know had the fire actually, you know, coming up and so on. It goes down, you know, and so on. And

[25:12] of course, there's a little scene after that, right? You know, where everybody who's witnessed this in some way, right? In in in the opera, that that is is going to turn a new leaf, you know. And they're all each of them sings about this, right? Huh? Then once it opens up to heaven, just very briefly, let the light come down, and then does it twice, you know.

[25:37] Then he brings the thing to a very, you know, impressive end, you know, but he doesn't like petrol, bam, bam, boom, boom, boom. Just just the way he just doesn't want to stop, you know, huh? You know, it's uh, you know, it's like Sherlock Holmes says, you know, in the the case there, the builder there was trying to frame, you know, somebody because he had a. Anger with the wife of the, I mean, the mother of the young man, and he almost convinced Sherlock Holmes, right?

[26:07] But then he tried, he made the case a little too much, right? And so afterwards, you know, a lot of times, you know, Sherlock Holmes and and Watson, you know, have a talk about the case, about the the whole thing, so on. And he was Holmes was saying how witty, clever he had done it, you know. He almost fooled me, you know. He went too far. But he, but what he says is very good.

[26:33] He lacked the what supreme gift of the artist, knowing when to stop. And it's something really subtle, you know. I have a book there on on the Italian painters and so on, and very good author there. He talking about Titian, you know, we did masterpieces, you know. And he says it right out. Above all, he knew when to stop, you know. I said, you know, the same the same thing that Sherlock Holmes says, you know.

[27:06] It's a marvelous thing. I said Mozart knows, he knows when to stop, you know. A lot of times when people tell funny stories, and I don't know when to stop, you know, just get just get to the tickling line there. You keep on talking, you know, and you kind of lose it a little bit, you know, but but you see what these great artists.

[27:41] So from this that he constitutes his end in the sin, right? He has the will of sinning forever, right? And Don Giovanni cannot but repent, huh? Because he's put his end in. sinning. Yeah, yeah.

[28:09] Whence Gregory says, huh, in the thirty fourth book of the Moralia, that the wicked right wish to live without end, right? That they might remain without end forever in their what? Iniquities yeah That's that's Don Giovanni, right? Don Giovanni is not really a what? Comic opera, in a sense, right? It's kind of. Of course, when the opera begins, you can tell there's something going on here, right?

[28:37] Differently than there is in the Don't see the figure over there. There's a certain parallel to Islam as well. Yeah. Their idea of paradise and essentially sort of living in their sins forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because

[28:52] I guess the wicked. Yeah, I was on the radio latest thing there. They're talking about the the terrorists there. They got this pornography, you know, on them, right? And when they when they got the the new mod you know there was evidence of pornography, right? You know, they have the idea that you have the you know the the maids up there, you know, and so on. I mean, this is trying to anticipate it, right?

[29:18] Huh? You know, and these guys who you know the nine eleven thing, they they were you know watching pornography, you know, before they did it, you know. So I mean, they're they're they're. Well, that's that's evidence that Father Tom wants to get the system wrong. He said two things in particular, two vices in particular, really, really open the soul to diabolical influences: drugs and pornography. Those two.

[29:47] So it's obvious if they're if they're deeply cited pornography, they're also deeply cited the devil. If someone puts up a big you know board there as you go by, Wooster there? You know. And there is such a message, you know. The one that's up there now is lust dragged you down to hell, right? And they give you some scriptural thing you can look at, you know.

[30:11] There was a question about whether the reward in paradise was seventy two virgins or seventy two raisins. So you could imagine the disillusionment if raisins. But there must be good raisins. Yeah. It's kind of funny, basically. We were at a funeral there on on Wednesday, right? We're at a funeral. Funeral. Oh yeah. So we went over to St. John's afterwards, you know, where the body was being delivered.

[30:41] They can't put in the ground yet till the snow. But coming back, you know, they got great big billboards. You know, put one of the ones up there advertising this this black this forty shades of gray, whatever it is, which is really a perverse movie, apparently. You know, it's just all one. Lust dragged you down to hell. Hear both sides. Hear both sides. I mean, it's. This was somebody in the pages of the Wanderer and I I just heard about this movie coming out, right?

[31:12] Yeah. So that some I don't know what some committee for you know anti domestic violence whatever they commended the Super Bowl advertisers because they had an ad against domestic violence. Because I guess a lot of the athletes. Yeah. They they've grown up with domestic violence and they're guilty of it themselves. Yeah. So they had an ad against domestic violence, and so but they also had an ad for this movie that celebrates domestic violence.

[31:36] Make up your mind. Where's it you want? Well, whoever pays the bills. Now the second objection here about it being medicinal, right? There's a lot of truth in that, right? That it should be medicinal. Okay. To the second should be said that punishment also which is inflicted according to human laws, right, is not always medicinal to the one who is punished, right, but only to others, right?

[32:10] Like Don Giovanni said, they're all going to, you know behave themselves, from now on. Um, just as when the what the thief is suspended, right? Hung, yeah. Not that he himself might be amended by that, right? But on account of others, at least by the fury of punishment, they might desist from what sinning, right? According to that of Proverbs 19, that the pestilent one being whipped, right, the stupid one will be wiser.

[32:46] That's good. Thus, therefore, the eternal punishments are inflicted on the reprobate by God, right? Are medicinal to those who consider. Right, who by consideration of these punishments abstain from the sins. Right, like the other characters there in Don Giovanni, Right, according to that of Psalm 59.

[33:14] He gave to those fearing, A sign. yeah, that they might flee from the face of the what? Arcus. What's the arcus? Po. Po, yeah. that they might be what? Your beloved might be freed. That your beloved might be freed. Right, by that. fear. To the third, it should be said that God does not delight in the punishments on account of themselves. Right, so the guy does who tortures, Right, but He delights in the order of His what?

[33:50] Justice, which requires this. To the fourth, it should be said that punishment, although it is per accidens ordered to nature, right? Per se, nevertheless, is ordered to the what? Lack of the order and to the what? Justice, yeah, and you restore the order in a sense, right, by this punishment, and therefore, so long as the disorder remains, always the punishment will what Remain.

[34:26] So... not usually a topic you choose to explain in the pulpit, for the pulpit. Nice hot variety. St. Bonaventure says that the saints in heaven think about hell. Yeah, right. The saints in heaven think about hell sometimes because they think about what they deserve and how kind God was, and it redoubles their joy. Yes, Saint Thomas has something like that on the resurrected, the resurrection, because all the saints in heaven see all the damned in hell, and that's one of those objections.

[35:03] Well, don't you think that'll ruin their day? No, it'll make them thank God all the more. Okay. Little break now. No. To the fourth, one proceeds thus: It seems that to sin is owed a punishment that is infinite in quantity, huh?

[35:52] For it is said in Jeremiah ten verse twenty four, correct me, Lord, in your judgment, but not in your fury, not in your anger. Yeah. Unless perhaps you what would reduce me to nothing?

[36:11] But ira or furor, anger or the furor of God, metaphorically signifies the. victory of divine justice, right? Yeah. Divine justice, but to be reduced to nothing is an infinite punishment, right? Just as to make something from nothing, as God does, is of an infinite what power? That's only God can create, right? The angels can't create. Therefore, according to the vindictive divine judgment, sin is punished what?

[36:52] By infinite punishment, according to quantity, so Jeremiah says. Freedom. Moreover, to the quantity of guilt corresponds a quantity of punishment, according to that of Deuteronomy chapter twenty five. For the measure of sin will be the measure of what? Yeah.

[37:13] But for a sin which is committed against God, but a sin which is committed against God is infinite, according to when you're offending, you might say. Ah, for that is grave. More grave the sin, the greater is the person against whom one has sinned. Justice is a more grave sin to strike the prince than to strike a private what citizen? Huh. But the magnitude of God is what infinite.

[37:40] Therefore, an infinite punishment is owed for the sin that is committed against God. Moreover, something is infinite in two ways: in duration and what in quantity. But in duration, the punishment infinite. therefore, in quantity, eh.

[38:06] But? Against this, because according to this, the punishment of all mortal sins would be what equal. For one infinite is not greater than another infinite, huh? Sounds like the mother.

[38:23] Okay. I answer: It should be said that punishment. is proportioned to the what in sin. In sin, however, there are two things to be considered. One of which is the turning away from the unchangeable what good, which is infinite good. Whence, from this side, the sin is what infinite. Another thing in sin is the disordered conversion of the soul to a changeable what good. And on this side, sin is what finite, because this changeable good is something what finite or limited.

[39:14] And also because the conversion itself is finite, for the acts of creatures cannot be what infinite. So, on the side of aversion, there corresponds to sin the punishment of damnation, which is also infinite, because you are losing a what. Infinite good Yeah, something to consider, right? Losing infinite good, for it is the loss of an infinite good, to wit, God.

[39:55] But from the side of the disordered conversion, there corresponds to it the punishment of the what sin, which is also what finite. That's a good distinction, seems to me, that he has there, right?

[40:16] I was thinking, you know, how how would I approach the question, why should one love God? You know, I'd say, well, as far as I know from my study of the Summa Contra Gentiles, and chapters book one thirty seven, thirty eight, thirty nine, forty, and forty one, there are five reasons why you should love God. Because in chapter thirty seven he shows that God is good, and you should love good things, right?

[40:47] So that's one reason to love God, because He's good. Then in chapter thirty eight he shows that God is not just good, but is goodness itself, after which all things that are good are good, right? That's even more reason to love him, right? And then, kind of intermission there in the thirty ninth chapter, right? Because God is goodness itself, He can't be anything bad in Him. So there is no reason not to love Him.

[41:29] Not most of us, and I guess that we everybody gets in everybody's nerve sooner or later. don't they There's always something not to love in everybody and ourselves. So a lady was getting ready to get married. She told me she should please pray for me. She says marriage is hard because we're all flawed.

[41:53] And my friend one Marie says people tolerate Schurk was because of your knowledge. but there are limits And then the fourth reason he gives is that God is the good of every good. Right? That's a phrase that comes from from his friend here, Augustine. Right? That's beautiful. That that one's missing in the in the Summa Theologiae, right? That article, right? And then in the

[42:27] forty-first chapter there, that God is the summum bonum, right? So that's five good reasons to love God. Now it'd be scandalous to say why should we love God?

[42:43] Would it be scandalous Yeah Scandalous Yeah. Why should we love God? It's obvious to you as a Christian that you should love God. You got the commandment to love God, right? Huh? I mean, why is why is this a question? I mean, why why Schurk was are you asking the question? Why should we love God?

[43:14] Yeah, but but should any Christian be in doubt that he should love God? Should be a question for him? Shouldn't be, especially since he's already commanded. He shouldn't have a question. I mean, you can't get to marriage. Why should I love you? Might be a question to ask. But isn't the question of the marriage with God? Why should I love God?

[43:42] I suppose because you can also prove your God through reason. Yeah, yeah. You could say though, you know, the theology, like Anselm says it's belief seeking understanding, right? Huh? So you believe that you should love God, right? Huh? And so no one should be in doubt about it, right? Huh? Okay. But when you ask the question, why should you love God, and your belief is seeking what understanding, and that's okay for belief to seek understanding, right?

[44:12] Because of reason. Yeah, but but it's not you're seeking a reason to to believe, right? But it's it's your belief is now seeking something in addition. There is an understanding of why you should love God, right? Mr. Lord says the parable of the seed. They hear the word without understanding. They don't seek to understand. They don't care to understand the words a real Christian does.

[44:38] Why she loved God? Well, He's the purpose of the universe. That's one reason, I guess. He's the end. That's what it's all about. It's a be it's a beautiful part there. To be this tractatus there and Summa Contra Gentiles, you got to push that book a little bit, you know. Reputation is tied up with that. You know, they say, "What's your favorite book of Thomas?" I said, "Well, the Summa."

[45:04] But no, that's not all I read by Thomas. But you know, the things here, you know. Okay. That's interesting distinction, though. I mean, as far as the punishment of hell, right now. The one is in terms of what turning away from God, and that's really the more serious one, right? The worst one, right? You turn away from the one who is the reason why anything is good in the first place.

[45:47] That's that's what why those who seek other goods change. with their always. They are bound to be disappointed, as Chesterton says about pleasure seekers, not pleasure finders. Now, I was trying to look at that chapter ten of

[46:07] Matthew when I was trying to read him, and that's where the twelve apostles are named, right? But the way they're named is they are named in couples, right? So he begins. He names Peter first, right? Matthew does, and then he brings in Andrew as a brother of him, right? And then he brings in James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John, you know. And then who does he go to?

[46:39] I think it's Philip and Bartholomew are next, right now. I don't know why. And then he has Thomas and and Matthew. Yeah, I think one of the other gospels, Matthew, comes before Thomas, but Thomas and Matthew. He mentions his name, the tax collector. He sticks it in. the telones whatever the word the Greek is telones yeah That's kind of a marvelous. one I noticed that humility, right?

[47:04] Huh? That Matthew has. I mean, why should the this terrible tax collector, right, be writing the the first of the gospels, right? This would be the first book of the what New Testament, right? The Second Vatican Council says that even among the books of New Testament, the four gospels are the principal, right? You know, and this is the first of the four gospels, right? Twenty-eight chapters, it's perfection.

[47:33] But why should this be why should it be at this tax? You know, why? Well, you can see maybe why John should have an epistle, I mean, have a gospel, right? Huh? And maybe Mark, you know, because he was the pupil of what Peter, and Luke is supposed to have been a pupil of Paul, you know. Why, why, why in first place here? Huh? The tax collector.

[47:58] Yeah. why Is it because of his humility? you know, It certainly shows up when he says, you know, He's forgiven much will love Yeah, yeah,

[48:12] yeah, yeah. Right here Who who who. Who's that woman? Mary Magdalene. She had kind of a torrid past, didn't she? Yeah, and more forgiven her than anybody else, so it seemed like, and so she was had more reason to love him, you know. First time to announce it was right. Yeah, yeah, it's just kind of a marvelous thing. Some Dominican wrote a book on Mary Magdalene. I never, I remember hearing about it, but I never read it.

[48:40] I ran across it, but but maybe some similarity between her great. She comes and names tells Peter, doesn't she, and John, you know, and then they they go running down there, you know, and

[49:00] she's there at the cross, crucifixion too, isn't she, along with with John. In terms of humility, right? Huh? You know, the one the sins of the flesh, I guess, and then the sins of avarice, or what they are, that the text. I mean,

[49:23] I mean, when when they're talking about you know how many times did you forgive your thing and so on, and well, you know, then it's business about getting two or three other witnesses, you know, and then the church, he doesn't listen to the church, well then treat him like a tax collector.

[49:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, must be the humility, right? Maybe he's got a high place there, and all the apostles have a high place. He's before Judas, yeah.

[49:57] Okay. To the first, therefore, it should be said that to what reduced to nothing, right, entirely. one who sins does not what fit the divine justice,

[50:17] because is repugnant to the what. Perpetuity of punishment. Yeah. Which is according to divine justice, as has been said, right? So, do the damned wish to not be anymore? Or not? That's a good question. Yeah. It says in scripture they wish they could die, but they won't. Yeah, yeah. It says they wish they were nothing. Again, it's just natural to want to be, though, you know. So I don't know how you like to see it.

[50:52] But he is said to be what. Reduced to nothing. Nothing, who is deprived of spiritual goods, according to that of one Corinthians thirteen. If I do not have charity, I am nothing. That's strong enough, right? Huh.

[51:12] My friend Jim Fransack always liked those things. He used to quote from Augustine, you know, and say, "Well, you know, sin is nothing, and the man who sins becomes nothing, right? " But this is kind of inspiring Augustine's way of speaking, huh?

[51:33] It was a story about a member of some religious community who I think had passed away. I could have the story get wrong, but he had been immensely talented, but he had some charity problems, and so they had said, if he had had charity, he would have been perfect. That's pretty deep. The second should be said that that argument proceeds about sin on the part of what?

[52:09] Aversion For thus man sins against what? God huh To the third it should be said that the duration of the punishment corresponds to the duration of the what? Guilt,

[52:25] not on the side of the what act, but on the side of the what stain, which stain remains, right? Which stain remaining, there remains the what? debt of punishment The debt of punishment, yeah. But the bitterness of the punishment corresponds to the graveness of the guilt, huh?

[52:53] But a guilt that is what irreparable, of itself has that is what should last forever, and therefore there is owed to it eternal punishment.

[53:07] But not on the side of conversion does it have infinity, huh? And therefore there is not owed to it from this side a what? Yeah. So the fires consuming Don Giovanni, are not what infinite. They're bad enough.

[53:33] Well, should we stop here? or what Time run out? Okay. whether every sin brings in the what death of eternal punishment. To the fifth one proceeds thus: it seems that every sin brings in the what death of eternal punishment. For punishment, as has been said, is proportioned to the what guilt. But eternal punishment differs from temporal in infinitum.

[54:11] But no sin would seem to differ from another in infinitum. For every sin is a human act, which is not able to be infinite.

[54:23] Since therefore to some sin is owed eternal punishment, as has been said, it seems that to no sin ought there to be a temporal punishment only there to be a temporal punishment only.

[54:42] Say one sin can't differ from another one infinitely, right? So they all get the same punishment. Why one be punished infinitely and the other one not? Unless there was an infinite difference, but there can't be infinite difference because human act can't be infinite. Well, that convinces me, right?

[55:01] You can you can convince a dimwit of anything. Moreover, original sin is the least of sins. Huh. Whence Augustine says in the Enchiridion on Faith, Hope, and Charity Charity, I guess, that the what mildest punishment is of those who are punished for original sin only.

[55:31] But to original sin is owed a perpetual what punishment. For they will never see what the kingdom of God. The boys who, without baptism, have deceased with original sin, as is clear through that which the Lord says, John three three, unless one is reborn again.

[55:58] Yeah, he cannot see the what kingdom of God. Therefore, much more the punishment of all other sins will be what eternal. Moreover, to sin is not owed a greater punishment from this that it is joined to another sin. Since both sin, each sin, has its own what punishment according to divine justice. But to venial sin is owed what. Eternal punishment. If with mortal sin is found in someone damned, because in hell there is no what, remission.

[56:52] Therefore, venial sin simply is owed eternal punishment. Therefore, to no sin should there be temporal punishment. Perpetual is going to be forever, right? You'd be punished there for your venial sins, so on.

[57:15] But against this is what Gregory says in the fourth dialogue that some what, guilt yeah, other guilt, are remitted, huh? After this life, therefore not all eternal sins are punished by what? Not all sins are punished by eternal punishment.

[57:40] I answer: It should be said that as has been said above, and that sin causes the debt of eternal punishment, in so far as it irreparably is repugnant to the order of divine justice. Now, how is that? To this, that it is contrary to the very beginning of the order, which is the last end. For it is manifest that in some sins there is some what disorder, but not contrariety to the last end, but only a disorder about those things which are towards the end, right?

[58:21] In so far as more or less suitably does one what, Intend. yeah, upon them, right? But the order to the ultimate end being what, Preserved. being saved, yeah, yeah, preserved. As when a man is what, although he's exceedingly what affected or to some trample thing, but he's not never less on account of that want to offend what God, huh? By doing something against his precept, whence to these sins, eternal punishment is not owed, but what temporal?

[59:04] Temporal? This is the question of the beginning of the order, right? I moved that English word beginning, you know, so it has that sense, right? Are

[59:25] you a man of principle? Gonna stick to your principles? See these things, you know. You a man of beginnings? Gonna stick to your beginnings? Same, but Chris, you know, you come aware of other meanings of the word beginning, right. You see, the danger is that that these words in that that are not translated, but transliterated, transliterated, they say, are be taken in their later meanings, right? So I say, you know, he has no principles.

[59:57] It sounds kind of funny to say he has no beginnings, because the word beginning is kind of stuck on the earlier meanings, right? We take an earlier principle, and it's what one of its maybe later meanings, huh?

[1:00:11] First meaning of beginning is what the point is the beginning of the line. The line is beginning of the surface, right? Surface is beginning of the body, right?

[1:00:23] And you have the sense of beginning in time, right? My beginning go back to well, eighteen thirty, I mean nineteen thirty six, nineteen thirty five was in my mother's womb, though. That's where my beginning go back.

[1:00:46] Don't try to hold on to beginnings, right? You know, like Nicodemus, there, you know, can a man be go back to his mother's womb and be born again? Because not that beginning, huh? Beginning is in the past. Pretty important beginning.

[1:01:06] Okay. To the first, it should be said that sins do not differ in infinitum on the part of conversion to a changeable good, in which consists the substance the act. They differ, however, in infinitum on the part of aversion, for some sins are committed by aversion from the last end. Some through a disorder about those things which are to the end. But the last end is from those things which are what

[1:01:45] to the end. But the end, the last end from those things which are to the end differs in infinitum, right? Okay. Is that clear to you? A little bit, maybe. Yeah.

[1:02:06] But you know, what does it? What did Christ say? You know, you don't. They say we don't know where you're going and how you get there. And he said, Why, what the road? Who does? And he what the life? Yeah. So truth, the life is is the end, right? But he's the road, right? Huh? Don't these Sundays say, you know, it's like you're getting off the road when you what?

[1:02:34] It's committing a mortal sin, right? Why, a venial sin, you're you're Looking at the flowers on the way, and stopping, stopping for an ice cream, and and you know again you're very, again you're kind of late, you know, you're kind of impeded from getting to your your destination, right? Huh? You know.

[1:02:55] So that helps you to understand a little what it is, right? What's the philosopher doing right now? The philosopher is on the what road to wisdom, right now. If a guy gets off the road to wisdom, he's he's on the way to foolishness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's not on the. You know, that's difference, right? Okay. Well, somebody might spend more time, you know, you know, get lost in geometry and never gets on to. Natural philosophy, let alone wisdom, right?

[1:03:39] Huh? No, he's going to be delayed, right? Huh? Time to get the funeral there. After the funeral, went to University of Vermont. He was a philosopher, I guess, but he doesn't know any philosophy. So as I think he's cut out, he's take a different road, right? You know. But anyway,

[1:04:03] okay. To the second, it should be said that to original sin is not owed eternal punishment by reason of its what gravity, but by reason of the condition of the subject, of the man who is found without what grace, without the wedding garment, I guess. Huh? To which only is the emission of sinna. Isn't that some some discussion that now in the church though about the, you know.

[1:04:33] Yeah, theologians talking. Yeah. So, question there maybe, huh? In that case, it should be said to the third about venial sinna that the eternity of punishment of it in hell does not respond to the quantity of the guilt, but to the what irremissible can't be remitted, right? Of it, as has been said, right. The man who has mortal sin, right, and then he's also being punished for his venial sins, right?

[1:05:07] But he can't. It's kind of it's not per se that it is being punished, right, forever, but because of his condition, right, that he can't get any forgiveness for eating too much ice cream or whatever it was he did.

[1:05:25] Yes. Stop here now.