Tertia Pars
87. Aquinas on Christ's Baptism (ST III q.39 a.6–8): The Dove, Whether It Was Real, and the Father's Voice
Class of 2010-04-08
https://berquistcourse.com/course/theology/13-tertia-pars/087-aquinas-on-christs-baptism-st-iii-q-39-a-6-8-the-dove-whether/

[0:00] To the six, one goes forward. Thus, it seems that unsuitably right, the Holy Spirit is said to what descend upon Christ baptized in the form of a what dove? I guess that's what it translates, Columba.

[0:31] For the first objection, for the Holy Spirit dwells in man by grace, but in the man Christ there was the fullness of grace from the very beginning of his conception, in which he was the only begotten from the Father as, has been said above. Therefore, he is full of grace and truth, as Saint John says. Right. Therefore, the Holy Spirit ought not to have been sent to him in what Baptism.

[1:05] he wasn't getting grace at that time, was he? No. Moreover, Christ is said to have what come down into the world by the mystery of the incarnation, when he emptied himself, taking on the form of a what slave, right? It's in the form of God, right? That's very nice text for us philosophers, you know, because we use the word form sometimes for the nature of a thing.

[1:41] So Scripture has it saying we're speaking. So, but the Holy Spirit was not what incarnate. Incarnate. Therefore, it seems to be said unsuitably that the Holy Spirit came down.

[1:59] Because the difference between the Holy Spirit and the one who became a man, right? Moreover, in the baptism of Christ, ought to be shown as in an exemplar, right, in a model, that which comes about in our baptism.

[2:26] But in our baptism, there does not come about some visible mission of the what Holy Spirit. Therefore, neither in the baptism of Christ ought there to come about a visible sending of the Holy Spirit.

[2:46] You didn't see anything like that with that night. No, she was kind of being sleepy that day, you know, so she didn't make any fuss or muster.

[3:03] Moreover, the Holy Spirit is what derived from Christ to all others, as is said in the Gospel of John, chapter one, of His fullness we have all received. But the Holy Spirit descended upon the apostles, not in the form of a dove, but in the form of what fire. Therefore, neither upon Christ ought He to have descended in the form of a dove, but rather in the form of what fire.

[3:45] Against all this is said in Luke chapter three that the Holy Spirit came down in a bodily species as a dove upon him. Right.

[4:03] Now he says Thomas says I answer it should be said that this was done about Christ in His baptism as Chrysostom says. What was done pertains to the mystery, right, of all those who afterwards would be what baptized. But all who are baptized by baptism of Christ receive the Holy Spirit, right, unless they accede to this in a fictitious way. According to that of Matthew three, where John says about Christ's baptism as opposed to His, that He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit.

[4:48] And so we're trying to show this about what's going to happen to us in our baptism, this, and therefore it's suitable that upon the Lord baptized the Holy Spirit descends, because that's we're going to do when we are baptized, right. This little Nisi Conscript was it? Is it like

[5:10] they're? It is referred to people that are. Unless they're attending, they want to be baptized. Yeah, yeah, we don't really believe it. Yeah. Yeah, it's going to the motions. Yeah.

[5:25] Sacrilege, right? Okay. Like a forced baptism. Or they just they feigned, like an example is after St. Thomas' time but I think there was one in Spain. who had a lot of Jews who would feign becoming Christians so that they wouldn't be kicked out of the country. Yeah, that's what. But that wasn't really a forced baptism. They may have come of their own accord, but they weren't in no mentioning that.

[5:53] That was no force. So the Inquisition was that that's around. So the first, therefore, it should be said. That, as Augustine says in the fifteenth book about the Trinity, "absurdissimum est." It is most absurd, right, to say that Christ, when he was already of thirty years, right, already thirty years old, to have accepted or received the Holy Spirit, right?

[6:29] But he came to baptism just as without sin, so also not without the what Holy Spirit. For if it has been written about John even, that he was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb of his mother, what should be said about the man Christ, whose flesh conception, whose flesh was not carnal or bodily or fleshly, but was what spiritual by the Holy Spirit Himself?

[7:04] Now, therefore, that is in baptism, his body, that is the Church, right, was thought worthy to be what prefigured, right? In which those baptized especially received the what Holy Spirit, huh?

[7:24] And soul, right? So the Holy Spirit comes down upon Christ, baptizing as a sign that He's coming down upon His Spirit, His mystical body, right, the Church, right, when they are baptized, right. Not that he is receiving grace down the Holy Spirit for the first time, or even, or even you know, abundance or something, right? He already has that. Yeah. I was

[8:22] a little off, but I was thinking, you know, about those two ways of dividing the Articles of Faith, and one is into three according to the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the other is according to the man, the divinity of Christ, right?

[8:42] And both divisions are good, right, and serve a purpose, but which is more appropriate to theology? Which is more the science? Which is more appropriate to theology? Those two divisions.

[9:05] Well, I can argue for the other, right? Because in the other, you know, for example, you take the six articles dealing with the divinity of Christ and the way Buckner divides them, right? This improvement upon the two medieval ones. You have one article about the divine nature, right? Then two articles about the Trinity: one about the distinction between the Father and the Son, proceeding the Son from the Father, and one for the Holy Spirit, right, proceeding from the Father and the Son.

[9:40] And then you have three dealing with the works of God, right, and the creation, right, and then the sanctification of souls and the glorification of them, right? Huh.

[9:56] Well. In order to follow the division according to the Trinity, though, right, you have to put creation with the Father and sanctification and glorification with the Holy Spirit, and that's not that's by appropriation, as they call it. Remember that particular thing. And there's a reason for appropriation, and there's something appropriate about as a way of understanding, you know, the more known or less known through the more known to us, right?

[10:36] But it's not as what as fundamental, right? See, in other words, you know, is creation a work of God the Father as distinct from the God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, or is glorification, you know, a work of the Holy Spirit as distinct from the Father and the Son? No, you got to explain. Well, no, we're appropriating that, but is what is in fact a work of the whole Trinity, and that's respected more in the division into what two?

[11:07] Yeah, and so I can summa there, you know, when you take up creation, it's taken up not with God the Father, but after you've taken up the whole Trinity, and now you're talking the works of God, creation, and so on, right? So it seems to me that the division into two is more what theological, right? More more appropriate to the discussion of these things in science, huh?

[11:38] Because more fundamental in the sense to an understanding of creation to know that it's a work of the whole Trinity than that it's appropriate to the Father. Well, that's good to know too, obviously, right? But but appropriation doesn't mean that it's a work of the Father as a distinction of the two. It's really a work of the whole Trinity, a work of the divine by the divine nature, which is common to the three, right?

[12:12] So as a sign of what I'm saying, then, is that in the theological works like Thomas's Summa, you're really following the division more into two than into what three, right?

[12:26] And it's kind of striking because the prima pars of the Summa is about God, divine nature, the Trinity, and then the operations, right? And then the tertia pars here is more about the human nature of Christ.

[12:45] I think the Athanasian Creed follows that division, right? And the the one right before Thomas, there, the in the fourth Lateran Council, right? It has that division into two. So that just reminds me, because a tangent to this, when speaking about meditation, the things we should think about meditating. Yeah. Saint Thomas recommends three things: think about God and His works, think about your soul and its works, and then how those two things, God and your soul, can be joined.

[13:26] Three points of meditation. That pretty much covers it. Because in a sense, you are going to explain, you know, the the creed when you divide it into three. You say, "Well, I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth." Someone might say, "Well, He created things, and the others two didn't, right?" And in order to understand, you have to say, "Well, we're appropriating, right?

[14:16] What is in fact a work of the whole Trinity? We're appropriating it to the Father as a way of manifesting something about the Father that what is more known to us, right?"

[14:29] Well, it's kind of complicated to do that, right? But it's kind of interesting that the creed, you know, does that. Yeah. Was it was our reading the the, was it here or somewhere? I guess it was here, but in the thing on Gospels too.

[14:51] What about Christ being thirty years old? Huh? What Augustine says, right? Well, thirty is three times what ten. So he says, the whole Christian life consists in what believing in the Trinity, right, and then obeying the Ten Commandments. That's the whole thing. And that shows perfection of Christ at the age of thirty, right? I think that's beautiful. I think, you know, just there you have the division of the three, right?

[15:20] It's beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. dogmatic theology and moral theology, right? That division. Okay. So I guess to primum, there what's supposed to observe, right? We're just finished. Finished that, okay. So second one is what about this going down right? Okay.

[16:03] And of course this is a nice distinction between the Father, I mean between the Son and the Holy Spirit, right? The Son is really said to descend because he really does become a man, right? But but the Holy Spirit doesn't become a dove, right? The Lord descended to become a dove, so he he doesn't, you know, then he said to go down, right? Why does he say to come down on Christ, huh?

[16:31] But to the second it should be said, and then as Augustine says in the second book about the Trinity, the Holy Spirit is said to come down, right, upon Christ in a what bodily form as a dove, right?

[16:51] Not because the substance of the Holy Spirit itself is seen, which is what invisible, nor again that that visible creature was taken on in the unity of a divine person,

[17:09] just as it is said, huh? Okay, nor is it said that the Holy Spirit is a dove, as is said that Christ, the Son of God, is a man by reason of the union, right?

[17:28] Nor in this way is the Holy Spirit seen in the form of a dove, as John saw the Lamb killed in the Apocalypse, right? As is had in Apocalypse five six, that that vision was made in the Spirit through spiritual images of bodies, huh? But about that dove, no one ever doubted but that it was seen by what? By eyes, yeah. It wasn't an imagination, right? It was to the exterior eye, right?

[18:12] Nor in this way does the Holy Spirit appear in the form of a dove, as is said in one Corinthians ten that the rock was Christ, huh? For that was already what in the creature, and by way of its action was what given the name of Christ, right? Which is signified, huh? But this dove only to signifying something

[18:46] suddenly, right, or at once. It existed, and then afterwards, what ceased to be, right? Just as the flame which appeared in the bush to what Moses, right? Those.

[19:02] Short time. The Holy Spirit, therefore, is said to descend upon Christ, not by reason of any union to the what dove, but either by reason of the dove signifying the Holy Spirit, which came, what? Coming down, came upon Christ. Christ, or by reason of spiritual grace, which from God, in certain way, by way of a certain descent, right, comes down to the what? Creature. Yeah, I mean, it's a beautiful quote there, right, from James.

[19:42] One seventeen, every perfect gift, and every perfect, everything perfect given, every. Every gift comes down, right? Descends amidst, coming down from the Father of what? Light, son.

[19:59] So, a natural light of reason and light of what? Grace, right? And the light of glory, and so on. All these lights come. They're coming down from the Father because they what? Are less full in us, right? Than they are in the Father, right? Or in God.

[20:23] Sense? I like that text, you know, for, for the fact that it's talking about the what? The best gifts, it seems, right? Yeah. They're coming down from the Father of lights, and it kind of indicates well, these these lights are what? The greatest gifts, huh? I mean, I do it too much as a thinker, you know. The light of reason, the light of but because sometimes light is is taken for things besides the the light of reason, right?

[20:57] Those things very much so, right? Um. Now, why doesn't it come about one in ours, huh? Yeah. I mean, you see, I didn't see the coming down upon this little one here. Yeah, Yeah, because I just noticed. Do you notice the volume Aristotle here in the corner? Pretty sure it's the Aristotle volume. and McKeon's there.

[21:29] Yeah, I don't think yeah. edition of Aristotle there. It looks like a little bit huh It looks like that McKeon edition. So she didn't have a dove. She had a volume of Aristotle drop on. her. Poor kid in the volume of Aristotle. Pretty heavy, pretty heavy. Wham. Wham, yeah.

[21:50] All these little girls, they they take their turn holding the baby. You know, they're pretty good at it you know. I mean, it makes them, a little bit nervous, you know, but but but babies, they're pretty well trained by now. I mean, they get an experience that each baby that comes along. Did their mom make the dresses? By the way, that they all had on. I don't know if she did or not.

[22:08] I know she makes Maybe a friend. Yeah. There's a little dog. Crazy. Oh, I didn't even notice. The dog is there. I see it now. Yeah. It's kind of funny, you know. The dog would come and you know, come to me. You know, I'm sitting in the room there. You know, You want to be affectionate with him. Yeah. And uh, and he'd roll on. his belly, show his belly, you know, it's, kind of a way of submitting to you, you know, and so on.

[22:43] A dog is so different than a cat. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, we know. But it's kind of remarkable the way the way a dog is really wants human companionship, yeah, and the way that they get a certain attachment. to their

[22:59] My son now, I think today, is going off to Saudi Arabia for about three or four weeks. You know, when he comes back, that dog would be crazy He'd go crazy you know? Oh yeah. you know he's not that crazy about the dog. Yeah. The way it was when my dad was working when we were kids, and he would come home and the dog would go berserk when he came home.

[23:19] When after he was home, I know the dog settled down. You know, he wasn't particularly affected or anything. But when he came home from work, he just the dog went out of his mind.

[23:30] Yeah, yeah, pet him and you know do this for a long time. you know for the dog He's just shaking. shaking he can't get over he's scared. Of course, then my dad would get all excited. too He'd say oh, oh, Talk and get all excited. That's why they say God made cats. because it's a humble man.

[24:01] Yeah. Yeah But you know, the kings of England, they had that lion. Yeah, And the throne there. Mm hmm We're down to tertium now yes Okay, the third objection was about us, right? Why don't we have this?

[24:33] To the first, it should be said that as Chrysostom says upon Matthew, that's what he's going to get Paris for. Was it Chrysostom on Matthew? I think it was. I thought it was on John, but I couldn't. Well maybe it was John. Yeah, it's one of those.

[24:49] Either way, Thomas thought that was a good. trade Either way it was good. Thomas thought that was a good trade Paris for. Yeah, I thought it was a good sense of proportion either way. Yeah, yeah, What that French king, you know, that as maybe maybe a false conversion, I don't know, you know, but but he's supposed to have said Paris is worth a a mass, yeah, oh really, yeah, kind of cynical statement, right?

[25:09] Yeah. Which king was that? Henry IV. Oh, really? Protestant Reformation. Navarre, Henry of Navarre. Well, Thomas but you know, Chrysostom is worth a Paris. Either one, one or the other. Paris isn't worth both of us. So Chrysostom says upon Matthew that in the beginnings of spiritual things, right, always there appear what sensible visions.

[25:47] On account of those who are not able to what? Yeah, any understanding of the bodyless nature, right? So that if they do not come about afterwards, from those things that at one time were done, they can receive what faith, huh?

[26:15] I remember seeing, you know, the the Ten Commandments there, Cecil DeMille, you know, did you see that when you were little? And you know, when the when the Ten Commandments are being written, right? You've got a Fire, you know, and then it goes like that, and and and it wasn't wasn't a thing, you know, and so yeah, it's kind of a long movie. I guess there was like a break there.

[26:35] You you know, you can go out to the men's room like that. So during the break, I got on the men's room there. There's a guy there in the men's room. He says, "Gee, says it makes you really think, you know. Like like this is awfully important thing, you know. " And I thought to myself, you know, and this was good for this man, right? You know, I mean, to me, being kind of you know, sophisticated guy, that doesn't do too much, you know.

[27:01] But it made the effect that sensible the way it does if I said something real, right? Yeah. And so I said, yeah, see, I just you know, I try to be as serious as I could be about it, you know, Even though I was not as struck as he was, you know, but he was right, huh? He was struck by it. So, made a big impression upon him.

[27:21] So it's kind of interesting. It affects him like that. Mm-hmm. That reminds me of Father Wagner said when Oh. We were talking about I don't know, somehow we got on the rocket ships and so this is one of one of the things we're talking about, getting the space shuttle and going to the moon and all this stuff. One of the kids, you know, being really impressed with going to the moon and spaceships.

[27:45] and stuff. He says, What do you think, Father? What do you think the angels would think about us going to the moon? Father said, they're? Probably not too impressed.

[28:06] And therefore, about Christ baptized, the Holy Spirit in a visible way descended in a what bodily form that upon all those baptized afterwards, he might be believed to what descend invisibly, right? You know,

[28:31] the fourth one. Well, it's a long reply to the fourth objection. We'll have to break here before we get to the fourth objection. Okay. We're in the fourth section here, right? And this is about the why does it appear under the dove rather than fire, huh? So

[28:53] to the fourth, it should be said that the Holy Spirit appeared in the form of a dove upon Christ baptized for four reasons, huh? Did you know that? No.

[29:08] First, on account of the disposition that's required in the one baptized, that he do not proceed but fictitiously, huh? Non ficto sed. Because, as is said in the Book of Wisdom, chapter one, the Holy Spirit flees the fiction of what discipline, right? And the dove is a what simple animal, lacking astuteness and deceit, yeah.

[29:44] Once it is said in Matthew ten, verse sixteen, be simple as what does, huh? That is beautiful. Isn't that beautiful? Um. Secondly, to designate the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit, which the dove, by its properties, signifies, huh? He refers to a footnote here to Rabanus there in the Golden Chain, right, on Matthew, huh?

[30:23] So on. Um. For the dove, it dwells along what flowing streams, I guess. That um. Seeing its enemies, I guess that's the cheaper towards that. Is that an eagle? harder than perceiving the hawk. Hawk, yeah, okay, yeah. It hides itself and of age, and then okay. Which pertains to the gift of wisdom, by which the Holy the saints along the what flowing rivers of divine scriptures reside.

[31:11] They might evade the what coming down the devil upon them, right? That's beautiful, he said, huh? Also, the dove chooses the better grains, huh?

[31:27] Which pertains to the gift of knowledge, by which the saints, huh? Choose those healthy positions, right? By which they are what nourished, huh? So I am nourishing myself with the tenaria right, huh? These nice things from Chrysostom and other people. Also, the dove nourishes other ones, aliens, little ones. Other birds and gallinules. Yeah. Okay. By which which pertains to the gift of counsel, by which holy men, huh, who were what, the little ones?

[32:16] That is imitators of the devil, are nourished by teaching and what, example, huh? Also, the dove does not what, injure, I suppose. Tear. Tear with its what beak?

[32:35] Yeah. Which pertains to the gift of understanding, huh? By which the saint do not pervert the good positions by tearing them, I suppose, huh? In the custom of the what heretics, huh?

[32:55] Also, the the dove lacks some bile or what gall? Gall. Oh. Okay. Which pertains the gift of piety, by which the saints lack what irrational anger, huh?

[33:18] What do you mean when you say somebody's got gall? What does that mean? He's got gall. I hear that expression sometimes. I think nerve. Yeah, nerve. Yeah, they're arrogant or forward. Yeah. Yeah. That's what an angry person is like, with irrational anger like that. Hey, Mister

[33:42] Gall. All gall divided into three parts. We had when I grew up, their town. We had Mayor Gall. Oh yeah, Mayor Gall. Also, the dove makes its nest in the caverns of the rock, which pertains to the gift of fortitude, by which saints, in the the wounds, is it, of the death of Christ, who is a firm rock, huh? Yeah. They place their nets, right. That is their own refuge and hope, right?

[34:24] Mm. It's in the in the prayer there to the. Yeah. Yeah. Prayer for me. Okay. Also, the the dove has a what kind of groans it or foot sound,

[34:55] which betains the gift of fear, of which saints delight in moaning for their sins. Kind of moaning sound they have. That's beautiful, huh? So Rabanus was about eighth century monk. He was in the Thomas quotes him a lot in some of the tenoria. See that Rabanus. So designates the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. We question you about those seven if you got

[35:28] them down. Third, the Holy Spirit appears in the form of a dove on account of the proper effect of baptism, which is the remission of sins and reconciliation to God. For the dove is a mild animal, and therefore, as Chrysostom says upon Matthew, in the deluge, appeared this animal, right, bearing the branch of the olive and announcing the common tranquility of the earth, right. And now the dove appears in baptism, showing liberation to us.

[36:34] Okay. Fourth, the Holy Spirit. Spirit appears in the form of a dove upon the Lord baptized, to designating the common effect of baptism, which is the construction of ecclesiastical unity. Whence it is said in Ephesians five that Christ handed himself over, that he might show for himself a glorious church, having neither what stain or wrinkles or anything of this sort, washing it by the washing of water and the word of life.

[37:18] And therefore, suitably, the Holy Spirit in baptism is shown in the form of a dove, which is an animal that is friendly, right, and Greg coming together.

[37:31] Whence, in Canticles 6, it is said about the church, one is columba mea and beautiful. Okay. So when you give the sermon on this, you can go to this ad quartum right? In a maze, in a maze, the congregation, right? You got to figure this out then, bit by bit, you know. But a lot of lot of little things you could you could do to spice up, shall we say, your sermons, you know.

[38:15] The Holy Spirit, however, descended upon the apostles in the form of fire, on account of two different reasons, right? First, to showing the fervor by which their hearts ought to be moved to predicate or to teach or to preach. Christ everywhere among all the pressures of the world, right?

[38:45] And therefore He appeared in what? Fire tongues, yeah. Whence the great Augustine says upon John, "In two ways, the Lord shows visibly the Holy Spirit: through the dove upon the Lord baptized, through fire upon the what disciples congregated. For their simplicity, without guile, here fervor is shown, right? For therefore, lest through what through the spirits being sanctified, we have what dole to be opposed to the simplicity of the thing, He was shown in the what dove, and they are what simplicity remains frozen, right?

[39:45] Ah, He is demonstrated in what fire. Who was dole again? Deceit, I think. Okay. Nor should we move because the tongues are what divided, but we know unity in the what dove. Secondly, because as Chrysostom says, it is necessary to what no one's defects. No one's crimes or sins. Yeah, which comes about in baptism. Because of that mildness is what necessary, right? Which is shown in the dove, but where we have gotten grace, there remains a time of what judgment, which is signified by what fire.

[40:48] Yeah, to forgive. I guess Ignatian means forgive, forgive the crimes. Now, was this dove a what real animal, right? The seventh one goes for thus. It seems that that dove in which the Holy Spirit appeared was not a true what animal, right?

[41:19] For that seems to what to hold its form, right? To appear, which appears according to likeness. But Luke says that the Holy Spirit descended in a body form as a what dove in it. Therefore, it

[41:47] was not a true dove, but a certain likeness of a dove. I guess he's trying to argue from the text there of Luke, right?

[41:59] Descended as sequitum, I suppose. Don't have my Greek here. Moreover, just as nature does nothing in vain, so neither God, as is said in the first book about the universe.

[42:22] But since that dove did not what arrive except it might signify something and pass away, as Augustine says in the second book of Trinity, In vain would it have been a true what dove, huh? Because this could come about through a likeness of a dove. Therefore, that dove was not a true animal, right?

[42:50] Moreover, the properties of a thing lead to a knowledge of the nature of that thing. If therefore that dove was a what true animal, the properties of the dove would signify the nature of true animal, not the effects of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, it does not seem that that dove was a true what animal. Well, Augustine

[43:20] gets into these things. So it's not just Thomas that's beating these things to pulp; it's Augustine as well. But against this is what Augustine says in the book on Christian agony, huh? Struggle, huh?

[43:39] Nor is nor is this what we say, right? That the Lord Jesus Christ, we say only what, Had a true body. Yeah. but the Holy Spirit in a fallacy or fallaciously appeared to the eyes of men. But both those bodies were true. We believe, right?

[44:08] I answer. It should be said, and that has been said above, is not fitting that the Son of God, who is the Truth of the Father, I am the Way, the Truth, the Light, should use somewhat fiction, and therefore not a what fantastical or imaginary thing, but a true body he took, right? And because the Holy Spirit is said to be the Spirit of Truth, as is clear in John sixteen, so also he appeared.

[44:48] He formed a true dove in which he appeared, right? Although he did not assume this dove in the unity of his person, right? Okay. Once after the fore said words of Augustine, he joins or adds, just as it was not necessary, right, or not suitable, that what the Son of God deceived men, right? So it is not suitable, appropriate, that the Holy Spirit would deceive men, right?

[45:24] But to the omnipotent God who made the universe from nothing, right? It was not difficult to make the true body of a dove, right? Without the ministry of other what does that generate the dove?

[45:47] Just as it was not difficult to make a true body in the womb of Mary without the male what seed, since the bodily creature,

[46:03] both in the visceral of the woman forming a man, and in the world forming the dove, served by the what command and the will of God.

[46:24] It wasn't just imaginary. Yeah, it's interesting. To the second, it should be said that the Holy Spirit is said to come down in the form or likeness of a dove, not to exclude the truth of the dove, but to show that he did not in appear in a what form of his own substance, right?

[46:58] To the second, it should be said that it was not superfluous to form a true dove, that in it the Holy Spirit might appear, because through the truth of the dove is signified the what. Truth of the Holy Spirit and of His what effects. So it wasn't superfluous, huh?

[47:22] So much for these bird lovers. huh? To the third, it should be said that the properties of the dove, in the same way, lead to what signifying the nature of the dove, and to designating the effects of the Holy Spirit. Because of the fact that the dove has such properties, naturally, I guess, right? It happens or comes about that the dove can also signify the Holy Spirit, right?

[47:53] There you go. It's like metaphor, right? The real thing, right, is the basis for this metaphorical signification. Where does it does come down, St. Mark's Square? There. Oh, St. Mark's. Favorite place of them.

[48:33] Is it still sinking? I think. Yeah. Yeah. Keep on trying to prop it up. St. Mark's. It floods certain times of the year too. You know, I've been there when it's not been flooded, but I've seen pictures of it flooded, people walking even inside the church. I don't think inside the church so much, but outside, you know, the square there, yeah. You have pictures of people walking these ramps, you know, wooden ramps and stuff.

[49:05] So, choose a town you visit. Venice. You've been to Venice, huh? New. Straight up is the northeast. It's northeast. Yeah. Yeah. They do something to stop it from sinking

[49:21] right now. With all the technology. Yeah, now that we've got iPads, now that we've got iPads, we can just stick them underneath that, isn't it? and it'll fix it But when I went there it was basically one centimeter Half a centimeter Oh really? How quickly Venice is sinking! Wow, the whole place or just here and there I don't know. It sounds like the whole place.

[49:53] Remarkable place, though, you know. History. Okay. Now, whether suitably, Christ being baptized was the voice of the what Father heard, protesting the what, professing the Son, right? The first one What Yeah, I guess so. To the eighth one proceeds. Thus, it seems that unsuitably, Christ being baptized, there was the voice of the Father heard, professing his what? Son. Yeah. Say witnessing points. See, incidentally, I noticed a footnote here for the last article.

[50:47] There, the contrary opinion, Ambros seems to what? Did you have that note? No, I don't have it. Yeah. And they have a quote here: "Descendit Spiritus Sanctus." Right, he says, "In specie non in veritate columbae So we're following Augustine rather than Ambrose. For the Son and the Holy Spirit, according to this, that they are appear in a sensible way, right? Are said to be sent visibiliter, right?

[51:44] Visibly, right? But it doesn't belong to the Father to be sent. We saw that in the Treatise on the Trinity, right? It's just clear through Augustine's second book of the Trinity. Then the idea of being sent has involved the idea of proceeding from another person. When, the Father doesn't proceed from anybody, so he's not able to be said to be sent. Therefore, neither should what appear, yeah.

[52:12] But what can appear without being sent? We'll see what the Thomas says though. Okay. Moreover, vox, voice, right, is what signifies the word in the heart conceived, right?

[52:31] But the Father is not a verbal. It's the Son, right? Therefore, unsuitably, he made known in the voice. Moreover, the man Christ does not begin to be the Son of God in baptism, as some heretics think. But from the beginning of his conception, he was the Son of God, right? More therefore, in his birth, ought the voice of the Father to have professed, right, the divinity of Christ, than in his what?

[53:13] Against all this is what is said in Matthew chapter three. Behold, a voice from heaven, from heaven saying, "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased, right, which I please myself.

[53:32] Okay. Well, I answer. Thomas says it should be said that as has been said above, in the baptism of Christ, which was an exemplar of our baptism, there ought to be shown what is perfected in our baptism, right? But the baptism by which the faithful are baptized, right,

[53:57] is made holy in the what calling upon and in the virtue of the what Trinity, huh? That's why we profess the faith according to the Trinity, right, in three.

[54:13] According to that of Matthew twenty-eight nineteen, going teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Docete omnes gentes. Actually the text says teach all nations, it doesn't say make disciples of all nations. Unless that's from a different gospel. That's only in Matthew that that is. Only in Matthew. And therefore, in the baptism of Christ, as Jerome says, huh, the mystery of the Trinity is shown.

[55:00] For the Lord Himself is baptized in His human nature, right? The Holy Spirit comes down in the habit of a dove, and the voice of the Father giving testimony to the Son is heard, huh? You got the whole Trinity there, right? And therefore, suitably in that baptism, the Father is also declared in the voice, It's got to be made known some way, and he's got an implied objection saying this was the simple way of doing it, huh?

[55:36] To the first, it should be said that the visible sending adds something above the appearing, to wit, the authority or the source of the one what sending, and therefore the Son and the Holy Spirit. Who are from another are said not only to appear but also to be sent visibly. The Father, however, who is not from another,

[56:08] is able to what appear, but he's not able to be sent visibly. Twenty times he reaches me, and I was going to solve the thing, right? But you don't find that the Father said to be sent there in Scripture. You don't find that. The Holy Spirit is sent. I'll send you the Holy Spirit from the Father. I think Christ said something like that. The

[56:39] second should be said that the Father is what not shown in the voice except as the author of the voice, right? Or as speaking through the voice, and because it is proper to the Father to produce the word, right, which is to say or what to speak. Therefore, most suitably, the Father is made known through the voice, which what signifies the word, huh?

[57:18] Whence the voice from the Father brought forth protests the sonship of the what word. And just as the form or species of the dove in which the Holy Spirit is shown is not the nature of the Holy Spirit, nor the species or appearance of man in which is demonstrated the Son Himself is not the what nature of the Son of God. So also the voice itself does not pertain to the nature of the Word or the Father speaking.

[57:57] Whence John chapter five, the Lord says, nor his voice that is of the Father. Have you ever heard that? Nor have you seen his what form, through which, as a Chrysostom says upon John, little by little, huh, leading them into the what philosophical dogma?

[58:28] I guess you got a footnote there, not to confuse them with the philosophers in our sense, right? You find some of the early church fathers there who speak of you know Christian philosophy, meaning the gospels, right?

[58:43] Yeah. It shows that neither the what voice about God is about God, nor the species. But it is above the figures and such what, species yeah.

[59:06] And as just the dove and also the human nature assumed by Christ was done by the what, Holy Spirit, by the Holy Trinity rather. So also the formation of the, voice right. But nevertheless, in that voice is declared only the Father as the one what speaking. That's why I sometimes call him the speaker of the house. Father. Just as human nature the Son alone assumes right, and as in the dove, only the Holy Spirit is shown right.

[59:44] As is clear through Augustine in the book about faith to Peter that wasn't the Doctor works in Ibis I don't know It says Colgentius Yeah, yeah, somebody else. yeah. To

[1:00:06] a third, it should be said that the divinity of Christ ought not to be what made known to all in his nativity, but more to be hidden in the defects of what his infantile age.

[1:00:25] But when he has arrived at his perfect age, in which it is necessary for him to teach and to do miracles and to convert men to himself, then by the testimony of the Father, his divinity was indicated, that his teaching might be more what. Yeah. Whence also he says, John five, that the Father who sent me, he gives testimony about me, and this especially in baptism, through which men are reborn as adopted sons of God, because the adopted sons of God instituted to a likeness of the what natural son, according to that of Romans eight twenty nine, whom what he foreknew, these also he predestined to become come conformed to the image of his Son.

[1:01:24] Whence Hilary says upon Matthew that upon Jesus baptized descended the Holy Spirit, and the voice of the Father was heard saying, "This is my beloved Son, that from these things which were completed in Christ we might know after the washing of the water, and from the what.

[1:01:51] The Holy Spirit flies upon us. Yeah. And the by the adoption of paternal voice we become what sons of God. Okay, maybe we should stop there. Yeah.

[1:02:10] Now this is this chapter four. Our question four begins a new part, right?