Tertia Pars
114. Christ's Descent into Hell II: The Damned, Unbaptized Children, Purgatory, and the Start of Christ's Exaltation
Class of 2010-11-17
https://berquistcourse.com/course/theology/13-tertia-pars/114-christs-descent-into-hell-ii-the-damned-unbaptized-children/

[0:00] To the sixth, one proceeds thus: It seems that Christ liberated some of the damned from hell. For it is said in Isaiah chapter twenty-four, they are brought together by they bring together one,

[0:26] bond in a lake. Yeah, fascists. in the fasces right? Oh yeah. Bonded together. And they were included in hell, and after many days, they were visited. He speaks there in Isaiah about the damned, who adored the the the militia. Yeah. Therefore, it seems that also the damned, Christ is saying to hell, were visited, which would seem to pertain to their what liberation. Hmm.

[1:03] So those who were in prison there, right? You want to speak of the maybe the the justice being in prison there, right? Hmm. But

[1:16] or detention center, I don't know. But the condemned, right, were in prison, right? Okay. But he had said before, you know, that Christ, in some way, has power extended to everybody in hell, right? But in different way, right, to those who have been brought out and those who are to be upbreathed, maybe for their lives and so on. More upon that in Zachary chapter nine. You, however, in the blood of your testament, right, bring out those chained from the lake in which there is no what water, says the lake glass.

[2:05] You liberated those who were held bound by what? Bars. Jails. Where there were no mercy, refreshes them, right? Which that rich man, right, asked to be relieved, you know. Yeah. But only the damned are included in the prisons without mercy. Therefore, Christ liberated some of them from the. Let's get a

[2:34] modern scriptural scholar. Do some of these texts, and you know what he'd come up with. You'd tell. They read the objections. They didn't read the answers. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2:46] Moreover, the power of Christ was not less in hell than in this world, for in both he does something through the power of his divinity. But in this world, for many states, some are what liberated, right? Therefore, also in hell, he liberated some also from the state of the damned, right?

[3:12] But against that which is said, against this is what is said in OC thirteen, where it says, "I will be your death, O death. I will be your bite, hell." The gloss says, "In bringing out the elected, but in leaving the reprobate there, he bit hell. That is not the good and bad that were left. Therefore, through the descent of Christ to hell, those who were in the hell of the damned were not liberated.

[3:47] Thomas says the answer should be said that as has been said above, Christ's descending to hell worked in the power of his passion, and therefore his descent to hell brought the fruit to those only liberation who were joined to the passion of Christ

[4:08] through faith formed by what charity, through whom sins are taken away. Those, therefore, who were in the hell of the damned either wholly did not have the faith of the passion of Christ as the infidels, or if they had faith, they had no conformity to the charity of Christ, but suffering. Right.

[4:44] Whence neither from their sins were they cleansed, They were going to be cleansed from their sins by adhering to the passion of Christ. And in

[4:57] count of this, the descent of Christ to hell did not aid them in liberation, not confer upon them liberation from the guilt of what Was it? Infernal punishment. infernal punishment. Yeah. So tough luck. Tough luck. Yeah.

[5:25] Too bad. You got one of those letters too. Well, I guess I guess that you know they they took one of these terrorists you know who had been involved in those I think it was the blowing up of some of the embassies there you know and killing people and he had all these charges against him they tried him in the You know the Carter, I mean the Obama administration tried him in a New York courthouse, and and they dismissed all the charges except one that you know that he was destructive of property.

[6:09] So you are not guilty of all these murders, you know, of the people who are killed. You know, it it shows the ridiculousness of it. Was this recent? Yeah, yeah, just recently, I guess. Why? Oh, it's crazy. There is a little clip of this

[6:28] soldier in the army who received the Medal of Honor. Yeah. And a little video. Did you see the video? I saw it. I saw it. President Obama couldn't have been more disinterested in this whole thing. Yeah. You just see his face. Yeah. Basically, here by the road. Wow. Cool guy that Barack Obama. He said.

[7:01] The alien. Alien. Okay, we got objections here. Objection. To the first, therefore it should be said that Christ descending to hell, all who were in what any part of hell, in some way he visited, right? But some he visited for their consolation, right, and liberation. Some for their what? Confusion. Refuting and their confusion, right, to with the damned. Once there, there is joined in the chapter of twenty-four of Isaiah, right?

[7:46] And the moon will what? Flesh. the sun will be confused, huh? This could also refer to the visit by which he visits them the day of judgment, right? Not that they will be liberated, but that they might be condemned. Amplius So according to that, as Sophonias, I will visit upon those men who are fixed in their what? Filth. Yeah, filth. Yeah. Strong thing. The

[8:21] Thomas Sunday says that one of the reasons for the last judgment is that the good or bad that someone has done is not fully manifest in things until the end of time, right? So, like a saint, you know, you know, the good that he does continues for generations, right? And the harm that some bad man does, he, you know, Karl Marx and all the harm he's done, you know, it descends, you know, for I mean, centuries, huh?

[8:50] So the full record is not written yet, huh? So that's what I was just reading. Catherine Siena, she says at the beginning of the dialogue, all the all your virtue and all your sin is through your neighbor. So whatever you do, however it redounds, that's how you're going to be either good or bad.

[9:16] Okay. Now to the second objection. when it is said in the glass, that where there is no what mercy, he refreshed them, right? It should be understood as regards the refreshment of what perfect liberation, because the holy fathers were not able to be liberated from those prisons of hell before the coming of Christ. So there he speaks of them as being in kind of a prison, right?

[9:56] Just like Socrates sort of speaks of the body as what he thought the soul would be, better. Off, as far as virtue and knowledge is concerned, but it's separated from the body, right? So, therefore, the body is considered to him to be a kind of prison for the soul. There is some truth to that, but it's not the whole truth about the soul and the body.

[10:17] Socrates would be scandalized by the Christian teaching of the resurrection. Get rid of that thing now! Take it back. Publish a book of retractions maybe. Yeah. What do you see, Mary Shelley? "Until death do us part." That's about the soul and the body, right? "Until death do us part," yeah. And then you join again.

[10:45] Now, to the third, it should be said. When I talk about why Christ, sometimes in this life, he says the sinner, right? To the third, it should be said, it was not an account of the impotency, the lack of power of Christ, that

[11:04] some are not liberated from the status of from origins, just as from some state of the worldly ones, but an account of the diverse condition of both, right? For men, as long as they live, are able to be converted to faith and charity, because in this life men are not confirmed in good or in bad, as they are after they're going out from this life.

[11:36] No, it's isn't the thing where the tree falls there; it's alive forever, right? If you pray that when you die, your will go in the right, fall in the right direction. Yeah. They tend to fall in towards charity, inclined to. That's right. Because as a man lives, so he dies.

[12:03] Aristotle said, "Such as a man is, so does the end appear to him." Do a little break here. Okay. Article seven here. The seventh one proceeds thus: It seems that the boys who descended with original sin, right, were liberated by the descent of Christ.

[12:32] For they were not held in hell except on account of original sin, just as the holy fathers. But the holy fathers were liberated from hell by Christ. Therefore, the boys, similarly, likewise, by Christ, were liberated from hell. That sounds reasonable.

[12:56] Moreover, the apostle says Romans five: If by the sin of one many are dead, right, much more the grace of God and the gift and the grace of one man Jesus Christ is abounded for many, right? But on account of the sin of the first parent, boys with own original sin descending to hell are detained. Therefore, much more by the grace of Christ are they liberated from hell.

[13:28] Moreover, as baptism works in the power of the passion of Christ, so also the descent of Christ to hell. But boys through baptism are liberated from original sin and from hell. Therefore, likewise, they are liberated by the descent of Christ to hell.

[13:53] against this is what the apostle says, Romans three: That Christ proposed, God proposed Christ a what? propitiation, right? By faith in his blood. But boys who descended with only original sin in no way were partakers of the faith of Christ. Therefore, they did not perceive the fruit of the what? Christ that they might be liberated from hell.

[14:29] Now he says, "I answer: It should be said that it has been said above: The descent of Christ to hell in those alone had an effect who were joined through faith and charity to the what? Passion of Christ.

[14:49] In whose power the descent of Christ to hell was what? Liberating, right? But the boys who with original sin descended in no way were joined to the passion of Christ through faith and what? Love. For neither did they have faith. Their own right, because they did not have yet the use of free will, nor through the faith of their parents or through some sacrament of the faith, were they cleansed from original sin, and therefore the descent of Christ to hell

[15:29] did not liberate boys of this sort from hell, and moreover through this, the holy fathers from hell were liberated, because they were admitted to the glory of the divine vision, to which no one can arrive except through grace,

[15:55] according to that of Romans six, the grace of God by the grace of God eternal life. Since therefore the boys with original sin descended, did not have grace, they were not able to be what liberated from hell.

[16:15] It's kind of a tough doctrine, right? Now, if this is true, then people who are doing these things called abortion. Are really responsible for a lot of. it. Now, what about the differences between the holy fathers and the boys?

[16:53] To the first, therefore, it should be said that the holy fathers, although they were still held restricted by the guilt of original sin, insofar as it regards human nature, nevertheless they were liberated through faith of Christ from every stain of sin, right? And therefore they were capable of that liberation which Christ brought descending to hell, but this cannot be said about these boys, as is clear from the things said above.

[17:28] To the second, it should be said that when the apostle says that the grace of God abounds in many, the many should not be taken comparatively, right? As if more in number

[17:45] are saved through the grace of Christ than damned through the sin of Adam, but absolutely, right? As if one were to say that the grace of one Christ abounds in many, right? Just as the sin of one Adam arrived to many, and just as the sin of Adam arrived at, those only who were. carnally joined to him through the what? the seed of him from which he descended.

[18:18] So the grace of Christ to those only arise who by spiritual regeneration were made his what members, which does not belong to the boys descending with original sin.

[18:37] No, about baptism here. To the third should be said that baptism is applied to men in this life, in which man is able to be changed from guilt to grace. But the descent of Christ to hell was shown to souls after this life, where they are not capable of a foresaid change. And therefore, through baptism, boys liberated from original sin and from hell, but not through the descent of Christ to hell.

[19:12] I know how firm this is in the church's teaching. You know, limbo. They say it's not talked about too much. I don't know. If I remember right, I just came up a couple years ago with that document that theologians came out with, and I think it's

[19:35] you can't deny. I think it's it condemned the denial of the existence of of limbo. To deny limbo is temeraris it's considered something like a sin against faith in some way. And yes, it's not defined as a document. I think it just says that it's a common theological opinion. Well, I have to check. As Father Peter told me, is it's it's it's not defined. But it's said to be it's it's the church I think was in a judgment from the Holy See or something that it was it's considered temeraria or bold rash to deny the existence of limbo.

[20:20] Something I have to look it up to see, but it's it's it's worded in such a way that well, yeah, it's not said that it you know we have to believe this or something, but I think because it's so it seems that to deny limbo is to in some way to bring into question original sin and the consequence of original sin or something. I have to check it out.

[20:39] So then, then the present pope would be in big trouble because he's seldom mentioned this for the limbo question. Well, he is. Because even St. Therese didn't like this doctrine at all. When she heard it in the catechism, she's like, "I don't think she taught that or anything." But the thing is, it is a common opinion from St. Augustine, St. Thomas, St. Bonaventure, St. Alphonsus, and so it'd be risky to just throw it out.

[21:18] I think of Thomas's position there on the on the on Mary and original sin, you know, huh? Because these these boys have any any opportunity, you know, to accept Christ, you know.

[21:39] But I'll leave that. there. With the Christ by his descent, liberated souls from purgatory, right? Here, Thomas says, maybe a few. To the eighth, one proceeds thus, It seems that Christ, by his descent to hell, liberated souls from purgatory. For Augustine says in his Epistle to Avodius

[22:12] because. evident testimonies, right? Both commemorate hell and its sorrows. For no reason does it occur. Wherefore, in that the Savior is what believed to have come, except that from those sorrows he would make them safe. But whether all whom he found there, or some who by that benefit he judged what worthy, I still require right information against this. Nevertheless, Christ to have come in hell and

[22:58] to have granted this benefit to those constituted in these pains, I do not what doubt. I mean, Augustine's open to some of them being removed from purgatory. But he does not give the benefit of liberation to the damned.

[23:16] More were, those who were what none were constituted in penal sorrows, right? Except those who, were in purgatory, therefore Christ did liberate souls from purgatory.

[23:35] Well, Thomas is going to say Augustine is not saying that they're all going to be, but it's maybe some, you know. Moreover, that presence of the soul of Christ did not have a lesser effect than his sacraments, right? Well, he's talking about sacraments, beginning count with Christ to the modern, you know, day. Well, if it's right, this is count with Christ. But through the sacraments of Christ, souls are liberated from purgatory, and especially through the sacrament of the what Eucharist.

[24:10] Therefore, much more through the presence of Christ descending to hell were souls liberated from what purgatory. I guess you put the coin in the box, right? Then the soul goes out.

[24:34] Overzealous preachers, they say, just rattling the box, just putting one in there, and your uncle is out. It's a bad life. Moreover, Christ, whoever he cured in this life, he wholly cured, as Augustine says in the book on penance. In John seven, the Lord says he made the whole man right saved in the Sabbath. But Christ, those who were in purgatory, he liberated from the guilt of.

[25:12] Of damnation, right? Which they exclude from glory. Therefore, he liberated them from the guilt of the punishment of purgatory. But against this is what Gregory says in the thirteenth book of morals.

[25:31] When our redeemer, yes, and our redeemer, redeemer, penetrated to the closed region of hell, then from thence he what brought out the souls of the elect. It

[25:55] does not allow us to go there. Whence he liberated already others by descending, but he suffered us to go to purgatory. Therefore, descending to hell, he did not liberate souls from what purgatory.

[26:19] Let's see what the master says. Anyway, I answer: It should be said. This has been said often. The descent of Christ to hell was liberating in the power of his passion. But his passion did not have a a temporary power, a transitory one, but an eternal one, according to that of Hebrews ten fourteen. By one offering he consummated the sanctified in forever. And thus it is clear that

[26:57] the passion of Christ did not then have a greater efficacy than it has now. And therefore, those who were such as now are those who are in purgatory who are detained. They were not what would not be liberated from purgatory through descent of Christ to what. Yeah. If already some were found there, such as are now, by virtue of the what passion of Christ, liberated from purgatory.

[27:27] Nothing prevents such by descent of Christ to hell to be what liberated from purgatory. So there he seems to say that some of them would be, you know.

[27:51] Now, from the authority of Augustine, says one cannot conclude that all those who were in purgatory were purged, but were freed from purgatory. But to some of these, right, this benefit was what bestowed. To those who already were sufficiently what purged, for also those who, when they still lived, merited through the faith and love and devotion to the death of Christ, that at the time He descended, they would be liberated from the temporal punishment of purgatory.

[28:36] It's like the, we're supposed to come around on the first Saturday. I think that's your, yeah, yeah. To the second, it should be said that the power of Christ operates in the sacraments by way of a healing, right, and a certain expiation, whence the sacrament of the Eucharist liberates men from purgatory, in so far as it is a certain sacrifice, satisfactory for what sin. But the descent of Christ to hell was not what satisfactory.

[29:24] It operates nevertheless in the power of the Passion, which was satisfactory, right? I said and said above. But it was satisfactory in general, whose power is necessary to apply to each one to something specially pertaining to him, and therefore is not necessary that through the descent of Christ to hell all were what. Yeah, those had some special attachment to the passion and death of Christ, huh?

[30:06] You ever seen that prayer of, of, Catherine of Siena there? You know, the blood of Christ. You know, it's kind of interesting. I can't quote it, but remember it. Very striking prayer, you know, striking prayer. She had the big devotion of the blood of Christ. Yeah. Oh, I read a letter, a letter where she, she constantly referred to that. Was it a letter to St. Raymond or somebody?

[30:43] Now he says to third that those defects, from which Christ at once in this world liberates men, were persona. properly pertaining to each one, but the exclusion from the glory of God was a general defect pertaining to the whole human nature. And therefore, nothing prevents those who were in purgatory to be liberated by Christ from this exclusion from glory, but not, however, from the guilt of the punishment of purgatory, which pertained to their each one's own defect.

[31:23] Just as reverse the holy fathers before the the coming of Christ who were liberated from their proper defects, but not from the what? Yeah.

[31:36] He wants to liberate you from further speaking. Yeah. Yeah, especially coming to pray. This is the break here now. Yes. Next thing is starting out with the new things. you're liberated Let's just look at the proemium there. You should be able to explain there. This is like the fourth part, right? Yeah. On this life of Christ. Consequently, one ought to consider about those things which pertain to the exaltation of Christ.

[32:06] And first, about his resurrection. Second, about his ascension. Third, about his seating at the right hand of the Father. And fourth, about his judicial power. All those things are in the creed, right? Mm hmm. So they're going to be all delivered by Thomas, right? Why do you believe everything, Thomas. The one thing that comes out when you read the sentences is the

[32:43] this here. which I don't think is is is so clear in the Summa. Um. He says that the proceeding of the Son from the Father, right,

[32:57] and the proceeding of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son, he says, is the cause and reason for the proceeding of the creature from God.

[33:14] That's kind of interesting, right? Yeah. And then he says, there's kind of a circle in God, right? What proceeds from God is ordered back to God, right? And he says the rational creature is brought back to God through the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit. So and this mission includes their proceeding from the Father or from the Father and the Son. So this is kind of interesting the way it's presented there, right, in the sentences.

[33:54] And because I don't know if you know the little bit of order of the sentences, but you know, in the first book of sentences, you're dealing with the proceeding of the Son from the Father and the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son, and then in I guess it's the next book, proceeding of the creature from God, right? So the emphasis upon the proceeding, right? And and the old principle that that the proceeding that is first and most perfect is the cause of every other proceeding, right?

[34:20] Well, now you go back into a little more in detail. I get at different points there. He said, in one way, the proceeding of the creature from God is like the proceeding of the Son from the Father, in so far as the Son takes on the what nature of the Father, right? Or he gets the nature from Father. And we are made in the image and likeness of God, right?

[34:51] Of course, if you consider the Son is as the Word, right? He's like the art of the Father, right? So, since we're made by the divine art, right? Instruct us, and but yet we don't proceed from God's nature by natural necessity, like the way the Son proceeds from the Father, right? But he proceeds by way of what God's free choice, right? And therefore, by way of what not of nature, but a way of will, right?

[35:23] And therefore, are proceeding from God as his effects, the reason, the cause of the results. The proceeding of the Holy Spirit, who proceeds by way of what a will, right? That's kind of interesting. I don't think you've been discussed so much in the Sumas, you know. Mm-hmm. Um

[35:45] I I was telling Ryan Murray on the phone the other day about this, and he said, "have you ever heard this being said? " You know, and I said, no, I don't think I heard it. And then when you come back to God, right, you got to be joined to God, right, and you're joined to God by both your reason and your will, right, by wisdom and by love, right.

[36:06] And of course, the Holy the Son proceeds as the wisdom of the Father, right, and the Holy Spirit proceeds as a love, right. So it's together, you know, they're bringing you back, you know. So there's emphasis upon the proceeding and the mission of the Father, of the Son and the Holy Spirit as words. The matter is causa et ratio, right? The cause and the reason for the proceeding of the creature from God, and also the cause and reason for the what the creature, the rational creature now being joined to God by his reason and his what will.

[36:49] Just like we say, the Word enlightens every man who comes into this world, right? Let me say, you know, the love of God is diffusing hearts to the Holy Spirit, right? So that's kind of interesting, you know. And I was kind of talking to Murray and saying, it seems you know that because of the way that the sentences is constructed, right? A little different the order there, right?

[37:12] Not as perfect as the Sumas, but because of that emphasis upon proceeding in the first volume and then second one, the proceeding creature, you have to bring out this truth or this aspect of the truth, you know, this part of the truth. And so that brought some clarity because of the way the Sumas proceed, right?

[37:32] Because usually when you when you think of God creating, you know, you're thinking of well, this is a work of the divine nature, in a sense, and it's something that you can know, kind of just consider the substance of God, right? You don't think of the the proceeding of the Son from the Father. Has been the reason and the cause of our proceeding some way from God, right?

[37:56] It's kind of interesting. I'm not sure I fully understand it, but it's kind of interesting the things and the sentences, huh? It brings to mind a comment I heard.