De Anima (On the Soul)
31. Sensible in Act, Sound in the Forest, and Praying with Other Religions
https://berquistcourse.com/course/philosophy/4-de-anima/031-sensible-in-act-sound-in-the-forest-and-praying-with-other/

[0:00] Saying that we're sensible is really kind of misleading because it's it's really you'd rather say sense making or something than sensible. Well, again, if you go back to the connection between a power and subject, right?

[0:32] There seems to be only two possibilities: either the power acts upon the object, right, or the object acts upon the power. Because if one doesn't affect the other or act upon the other, then there seems to be no what connection between the two, and therefore no reason to say this is the object of that power, right? So it seems to be an exhaustive division to say either the object acts upon the power, the power acts upon the object, and in the case of the feeding power, our digestive powers would seem to act upon the food, right?

[1:17] But in the case of sense powers, as he argued in the second book, there the object acts upon the what power, right? We can't really, you know, lose sight of that, right? So if the sensible is what acts upon the senses, then the sensible inability is what is able to act upon the senses,

[1:57] and the sensible act is what is acting upon the senses. So if no one's taking his glass, you know, Aristotle would say that would say that in some sense, the sound in the forest if no one's taking the glass, right? But if you've got something that's taking the glass and nobody there to hear it, then you have something able to be heard, but not actually heard, right?

[2:41] Same with that food, you know. We didn't have have any taste. It's not we didn't have any taste there before I tasted, right? But is it tasty before I taste it?

[2:58] In a sense. In a sense, yeah. But Aristotle would say that what? It's fully, yeah. It's fully tasty. You're tasting it. So when you taste it, this is tasty. Was it tasty before you tasted it?

[3:29] Because the agency saying, since we're denying altogether that it was, right? But again, isn't that an example really of what we said here? The inability of our mind to understand ability. You know, the problem we had with matter. huh? That ability is nothing. Yeah, we should probably stop shortly because we're just at the end of this section. Maybe we can start with the second one, twenty-four, twenty-five next time, you know.

[4:28] Okay. Let's look at the last paragraph, which is kind of nothing new here. If, however, concord is a certain sound, while the sound and the hearing are as one and are not as one same thing, while concord is a ratio, is necessary for hearing to be a certain ratio. It means more again the sense organ, maybe. And because of this, also each excessive thing, both the shrill and the strong, destroys hearing.

[5:01] Similarly, in flavors, that's the point he made before, right? But kind of brought in again at this point that because of the likeness of the two.

[5:26] Now, next time in this 284, in the part going to the end of the thing, he's going to be separating the. It's going to be rather reasoning from this other act that we sense the difference between the private sensibles of different senses, right? And is one sense able to do that? Say,

[5:53] what can the sense of sight know the difference between white and sweet? It doesn't know sweet. See, no. Can the sense of taste know the difference between white and sweet? Well, it doesn't know white, but knows only sweet. Can the two together

[6:13] know the difference? See. Sometimes I ask students, you know, going back to syllogism, if I know the major premise but not the minor premise, can I syllogize? If you know the minor premise but not the major premise, can you syllogize? Right. So if I know, let's say that

[6:46] every mother is a woman, but I don't know that no man is a woman, and you know that no man is a woman, but you don't know that every mother is a woman, right? Can either one of us syllogize that no man is a mother? Now, can the two of us together? I knowing the major premise. Let's say, and you knowing the minor premise. Can the two of us together syllogize?

[7:14] Or does one of us have to get at least one of us have to get both premises into his head? Right. So it's the same one. What would mean to your will to pity somebody? Kind of hard to see, isn't it?

[7:39] See, when God, actually, the word that they use for for pity there in Greek, there same one they use for for the emotion, right? And you say God, you know, Kyrie eleison and God have pity, just saying, right? God have mercy, we usually translate, right? That's the same word Aristotle has in the book on the tragedy there, right? He talks about pity and fear,

[8:05] same one you have when you talk about pity in the rhetoric, right? You know, you get the jury feeling pity for the guy, and then they let them go, or they don't punish him so much, right?

[8:21] Now, I don't think when you speak of the mercy of God, I don't think it's a metaphor, but but it's taken from metaphor, right? What is the mercy of God?

[8:36] God feeling sorry for us in our misery, He's sad. It's you know, it's God's will to relieve our misery, isn't it? That's what it really is. huh? That's that's, that's so different in a way from from this feeling of pity we see when we see somebody hurt or somebody in pain or something like that, right? Or they they've lost somebody, you know. huh? You know,

[9:41] I remember asking a girl one day, "What is love? " And she said, "Oh, it's a very special feeling. " She says, "People are, you know, they can't get beyond that, really, you know, right? " You know, in the love and friendship course, it says, "What is love? " It's a feeling. I says, "Well so is anger? " So is sadness, But I mean, you know, apart from what feeling is in particular, you know, they can't say that very well, but they can't get beyond the love that is a feeling.

[10:22] So I say, you know, I say to them. If you put the marriage there, you know, and he comes out, and he says, What does he say? " You know,

[10:33] do you have wonderful feeling about so and so? No, no, he's saying, you know, are you choosing this person, right? Do you choose someone as your spouse, right now? You know,

[10:49] it's only you have wonderful feelings, but he doesn't ask you whether you have good or nasty feelings about this person, right? I don't think they really know that, right? I mean, I mean, they think that

[11:10] you get married because you have these feelings about this person. Well, I suppose you are doing something, but it's it's it's not a feeling that you know. They say, you know, that it's not really the priest or the minister that marries you; you marry yourself, right? But you don't get married by by by two feelings. You get married by by two acts of the will, right?

[11:36] Right, it's a choice. We don't realize how much people are stuck on the original meanings of these things, and they can't move the word. As Monsignor Dionne would say,

[12:22] but you know, if I say to the students what my mother used to say, you know, I see said the blind man, but he couldn't see at all. They can, you know, kind of right away. They're kind of aware of the different meanings of the word "see. " See, it's much more clear. The word "see" is meaning, you know, with the eye and seeing in the sense of understanding.

[12:40] But with love, you know, the two loves, you don't see that clearly, right? You know, if I said I love you, but I don't love you, You know,

[12:58] Uh... The pun wouldn't be clear. you know, I see, said the blind man, but he couldn't see at all. I think see that right away.

[13:23] I love you, but not in love with you. We'd say it that way. Okay, so we're gonna pursue next Wednesday our inward course, right? The following week we begin school on the twenty-sixth, right? Yeah. So I think this this semester I got a Monday, Wednesday, Friday schedule mainly. So I can't really come up on a on a Wednesday, so it should be either Tuesday or Thursday, which is probably doesn't make a difference to me usually, but whether it's Tuesday or Thursday, that's better for you people.

[14:24] Next week we can on Wednesday, you know, but the following week I'll be when we start the twenty-six. So. Is Thursday better than Tuesday or what? Traditionalists will argue against

[14:45] certain ecumenical prayer gatherings, like getting together to pray with the Jews or the Muslims. Yeah. Because they'll say we can't pray together because we don't have the same God. Because the Jews say God isn't a Trinity, and we say God is a Trinity. Therefore, it's a different God. So. You don't. You know, it would be like praying with someone who worship the devil or something, and get together and let's pray together.

[15:21] Would be good. But it seems like, in some sense, we can. So. Would you say even the Muslims will even be more upset about Allah is not God? So our God, so we can't ever pray with the Muslims in any way.

[15:51] Well, again, it seems that that you know John Paul II has done that right. Yeah. sure. I mean, if you pray with those who have an imperfect understanding of God, that's one thing, you know. It's another thing if they, you know, had a perverse notion of God, right? False notion of God.

[16:35] But in some ways, sometimes it's mixed up. They'll have some false notions, but yeah, they still have started with a kind of a general, vague notion that we would share about God. But then they have some. you know, obstacles. Yeah, that's true. So would you say you can kind of

[17:08] always assume. I think a lot of a lot of Catholics in the pew probably think that God is emotions and other things. like that. You get theologians saying that nowadays, right? So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we just said recently. It probably comes up in here. Very pious, but he was just surprised. He was talking to the Anglican priest. You mean God is not a father with a big white beard, and he's very serious.

[17:42] You know, I couldn't. Really couldn't figure out. Yeah. Yeah, one. I was wondering if he closes the doors and all the windows. Yeah. How does an angel come in? You know. He's going to go through the keyhole. But I remember the conversation between my my cousin and his mother. You know, and my cousin started explaining to his mother, you know, that God, you know, in his divine nature, has no body, right?

[18:13] Yeah. She just can't understand that God has no body, right? And finally, you know, he's trying to. What do you say, he says, "you know, You know, but you don't. realize, she was a, you know, good Catholic, I mean, you know, you know, church-going, everything, you know, but they just don't. You know, can't surprise you know.

[18:38] So what would you say when, when? But he's a person who's thinking of God, you know, as a body, right? You know. But you wouldn't say you have to make some distinction, you wouldn't say, well, therefore, you know, you have a different God than I do. You're praying to a God with a body, right?

[19:26] How would you distinguish? Like you said, you know, even Catholics would have some mistakes about God, but that doesn't mean they have a false God.

[19:44] I mean, I mean, there are texts or Thomas, you know, where you know he talks about God being simple, you know, and that any mistake about God almost is like a denial of God, right? Yeah, and that's very strong. You know, you got to be careful about that, though. Um...

[20:21] I mean, what was Thomas says in one place there. One can hardly say one Our Father without being distracted. I said one more. I said here he's really more human than I usually see. Thomas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Good. So somewhere he's talking about you know, the intention and so. on And

[20:45] you're praying in church, and somebody's, you know, next to you is wandering his mind, is wandering off somewhere, you know, and. uh, uh, you know, sometimes I'm saying prayers and I see he was taking, I should have said prayer over again, you know. Over again. You know, like I was, I was thinking about something, and I said that prayer, something else. I'm glad he said that. Yeah.

[21:11] I mean, am I praying with you when you're not even praying? You're thinking about something you have to do or something, something, right? Mm-hmm.

[21:36] I get that Psalm 18, you know, which ends up with the let the words of my mouth and the thought of my heart find favor before you, O Lord. It says let the words of my mouth, and that goes to the thought of my heart, right?

[21:53] You know, they say to our Lord, teach us how to pray, and since He gives them the words in which to pray, right? Our Father, who are in heaven, right? You know. And

[22:07] then you have to eventually what have the thoughts correspond to the words, right? Keep on seeing maybe more in that prayer, right? There's there's one of the scenes there in the revised there, you know, Saint Teresa of Jesus sitting there, and someone says, "What are you doing? " She's just meditating in the words, "Our Father, " how sweet it is to call him our Father, right? And so I mean, you keep seeing more and more in these words, right?

[22:38] You know, and so on, more and more devotion. But you have to get, you have to be kind of led by the words first. Second philosophy, you know, where you you may learn the words of a definition, and it takes a long time for you to understand what the words mean, right? Like the definition of reason by

[23:04] Shakespeare, right? You know, I remember first learning the words of definition of motion. See, now I understand what motion is. Now I understand, what my brother Richard, is saying now you may think you understand what emotion is. You know, it's a, I mean, you know, you. You you have to get the words straight first, you know.

[23:26] You see more and more, more and more in the words. Because that's what I was wondering, you know. you're saying the, the rosary or something like that, right? Can you think of what the words mean at the same time that you're meditating on the mystery? No.

[23:54] No. I don't think you can, can you? If I'm saying, I'm saying Hail Mary, the Hail Mary. I'm trying. And what am I supposed to be doing? You know, am I supposed to be thinking of the words of the Hail Mary, or am I supposed to be thinking about the mystery that those ten Hail Marys are? Well,

[24:21] can you actually do both at actually the same time? If your Padre Pio, yeah, brother. What did they say? You said three-one rosaries or was it everything? Yeah. Yeah, it's an

[24:38] interesting thing. There being a crash, there being a card in there, the captions or whatever they sent one of these little Padre Pio cards, you know. Little thing about prayer, you know, Padre Pio, kind of interesting. You seen that, didn't you? Yeah, kind of interesting. Word is useless, he says.

[25:02] I remember reading some guy who went to interview Padre Pio, you know, and of course he had a heck of a time getting down to that place and all that thing, you know. And Padre Pio says, "Just one Hail Mary would have been worth all this, " you know. Instead of going through all the way down, you just said a Hail Mary, you would have been better off.

[25:33] The first thing I read by Padre Pio, my cousin Down had this one thing. What is this? Meditation of the Passion. there or Meditation, of Mary Immaculate, I think There's a couple of little things. there. That's very impressive. I thought, you know, at the time I didn't know who he was, you know, but then you hear things from time to time. Finally, canonized him, you know. I guess he had a lot of skeptics there in Rome, you know, for a long time.

[25:59] People weren't too sure about whether he was a candidate of it. And that's kind of, you know, a cross of the various things. Are

[26:23] you celebrating the Assumption tomorrow or what? Right. You have the same, Today they had now they had Maximilian Kolbe. You probably didn't do that. did you do that? Yes, he started a little order of some sort, you know, devoted to Mary. Something about the Immaculate Heart. It was kind of probably right before the Assumption. he was sort of devoted to Mary. Mm hmm It's that Polish Pope, you know.

[26:53] like in this Polish. thing About praying with people of other religions. Well. I mean, you try to teach a child how to pray, you know. Have a child pray with you or something, you know. Maybe the child has a very imperfect understanding of to whom he's praying, right? Hear these things. At one time, my son Marcus thought that Father Mungluso was Jesus Christ. He's supposed to be a priest.

[28:07] I don't know where he got that idea. You never know what's going on in the minds, right? An Irish girl used to came from Ireland and helped my grandparents when they were getting old. She thought the priest was God because they said, "You know, we're going to church to see, and we'll see God. You know, God's in the church. " The priest came out. That's God. Yeah, yeah.

[28:34] That's a pretty strong heresy, you know, But it's a false notion, right? You know? so I mean, I mean, um, so I mean, is

[28:48] is that wrong to try to pray with such a person? You know. So you could show them by analogy, then, that. even Catholics, are In Catholic ceremonies.

[29:17] you might say. You know some. Some of the American Indians had some idea, about you know, one. highest God who who made everything. Though maybe some of their other ideas about him were wrong, you could say, "Well, you could agree on that. " Or the Muslims, you know, have a lot of the attributes of God, Mm-hmm.

[30:09] I wonder what the Muslims believe? Really, you know about God exactly? I remember reading this priest, Jesuit priest in Japan, I think. He was saying, "Well, with a lot of religions, they could pray, which is the Protestants and the Jews. They would actually pray together. " But he said, "With the Buddhists, they didn't pray together because the notions were some of them didn't even think there was a god.

[30:59] " So he said, "Well, they would sit together and meditate. " He said they they would you know they would they would discuss things and then they both meditate, but he said they weren't really praying together. They couldn't have even a general prayer service. Yeah, yeah, the Buddhist is kind of funny. you know, they don't really believe that there is a God, right? They don't. uh...

[31:27] You know? What do you believe? Yes, some of them say there's even no soul or even self. It's like there's just sensations and thoughts. That's all there is. With yourself, what you call yourself, there's really no one thing. It's only what's kind of actual and just all this multiplicity. There's no something like Hume Hume, no substance. You know,

[31:58] so it disappears from Berkeley to Locke to Hume. So some of these even Catholics you know, will be very upset about the Pope because they think you can't pray with anybody except Catholic who has the right idea of God.

[32:31] But it's, I just was thinking, there, there's something, something you know, implicit in they. that there's common. You could say that you might agree on God, and then you could, you know, say without certain, even the Jews, you know, say that the Jews deny the Trinity. God is not a Trinity, but God is a Trinity. therefore.

[33:18] But other things you have. No, but they say if you you know make it a strict rule, then they say you're gonna be fighting. I can't go to church on Sunday. We pray at people who think that God has feelings, or God has a body, or

[33:36] God needs us, or something. Yeah. So there's some distinctions, or you just kind of abstract from certain. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how you formulate the prayer, We didn't study the prayers. The Holy Father kind of prayers did he use when he was praying with these people. He had Buddhists there too, right? Yeah, he had blues. And aren't they there right now Yeah. He prayed with blues, or what?

[34:05] I don't know what, or whether maybe he just prayed he could do what he wanted. Like in public schools. I have just from seeing order, you know, cause that that's

[35:03] You know, some people have in their mind things that contradict their first principles. They haven't eliminated their first principles; just haven't seen it through. So you could say these people still have that.

[35:23] Yeah. You could say, well, maybe you could somehow use that, and you know, leaving aside the other errors. So it's on the D but that other Jesuit is in trouble. like Father Fessio, you know, for the Orthodoxy, right? I know it was one of the Jesuit schools. I guess they had some mass going on. they had some some. uh, I get conflicting reports. They had some woman Protestant minister right up there on the altar during the mass.

[36:21] You know, I was just cons- consolidating or giving the impression she was consolidating. I don't know what it was. He like he said heresy, and he walked out of the church. you know, so he's