De Anima (On the Soul)
97. Powers of the Separated Soul: Article 8, Love and Emotion, and Mozart's Music
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[0:00] So let's take a little break now between the two articles. That seems like the natural place, but not too long a break here. To the eighth, he proceeds thus: It seems that all the powers of the soul remain in the soul when it is separated from the body. For it is said in the book about. The spirit and the soul, right? This is a famous book that some people, I guess, wrongly attributed to Augustine, right?

[0:29] Oh. So it has certain authority because they thought it was by what Augustine, right? Mm-hmm. They can go down through you know the history of human thought, and you'll find certain books sometimes falsely attributed to somebody, right? So there's some books attributed to Aristotle. They don't think are by Aristotle. Some attributed to Thomas. They're not by Thomas, right? And you know, there's all kinds of opinions to who wrote these things.

[0:58] My little footnote here speaks of an anonymous member of the Cistercian order, but others think it's Alcher of Clairvaux back in 1169. But anyway, Thomas always say this book is not of great authority, right? Right. But people sometimes quote it thinking that it's by Augustine or something. For as is said in the book about the spirit and the soul, they have those two words there, huh? That the soul, when it recedes in the body, it takes with itself or draws with itself sense and imagination, right?

[1:30] Reason, understanding, and the concupiscence and irascibility on the emotions. Well, Thomas will be saying, you know, that as in a subject, only what understanding and will, right? Right. These other ones are going to remain in the soul as in a root, right? Right. But they won't be actual there because you don't have the body, huh? These are powers that are can be only in the body or in the composite of soul and body, huh?

[2:01] But you have the root of them still in the soul. This is going to point out in regard to the second objection. More of, the powers of the soul are its natural properties, just like half of what four, right? It's a natural property of two. But as you'll point out in the reply to the objections, they naturally fall some upon the soul by itself and some upon the what soul and united with the body.

[2:32] But a property is always existing in property in the strict sense. It's all that in logic, and is never separated from that which is a property. So half of four always belongs to two, right? It always belongs to a triangle to have its interior angles into the right angles. Therefore, the powers of the soul are in it after death.

[2:57] Moreover, the powers of the soul, even the sensitive ones, are not weakened when the body is weakened, because, as is said in the first book about the soul, if an old man could get the eye of a young man, right, he would see just as well as a young man.

[3:15] But weakness is the way to corruption. So if they're already weakened, huh? The power itself, then the powers of the soul are not corrupted when the body is corrupted, but they remain in the separated soul.

[3:30] Now, the fourth one, you are getting more into the equivocation of the word memory, because memory, in one sense, is a sense power, right? Yeah. In other sense, we speak of memory in the reason itself, but it's tied up at the universal. Okay. Moreover, memory is a power of the sensing soul, as the philosopher proves, book on memory and reminiscence. But memory remains in the separated soul, for it is said in Luke chapter sixteen that the wise man, right, when he was what existing in hell there, right, according to the soul, remember that you receive good things in this life.

[4:09] You know the famous story that was in the gospel there, last Sunday or Sunday before. So you remember is how Lazarus, right? Remember how Lazarus was suffering. Now he's, you know, at ease, right? And you were. enjoying. yourself but now he's suffering, right? He wants a you know water on his tongue, right? Of course he wouldn't have any tongue, would he?

[4:36] Therefore, memory remains in the separated soul, and consequently, the other powers of the sensitive part. Now, joy again and sadness. Well, the names of the emotions, you see, are borrowed to name things that are like them in the will. But it's very hard for the average person, for anybody, for that matter, to distinguish between, let's say, the love that is an emotion and the love that is an act of the will.

[5:14] And I know when I teach the love and friendship chorus, which I teach again this fall, I sometimes come in and say, "What is love? " And some of them say it's it's emotion. I said, "Well, so is hate, so is anger. " But there's some love that is not an emotion, too. You see. But they think of love right away as a what emotion, right? And they think of joy or sadness right away as a what emotion, right?

[5:42] And because we're the animal that has reason, what is sensible is more known to us. And so we name the emotions before we name the acts of the will. And rather than give an entirely new name to the act of the will, what we do often is to borrow the names of acts of the of emotions. And keep somewhat likeness to that original meaning, but we drop off the bodily aspect of it.

[6:23] If you ever have a chance to study the first book of the Summa Contra Gentiles, when Thomas is talking there about God's will, and then you have what a third step, right? Because some names of emotions can be carried over to the acts of our will, but dropping out the bodily aspect of the emotion, and some of those names can be carried over to God's will, but not all of them.

[6:59] And some can be carried over properly to God, and others only what metaphorically. And Thomas will explain all about which ones are which, right? So the same thing with joy and sadness.

[7:20] It's hard for students to see the difference there, but. Um. I came into class there the other day that they mentioned that, and it was logic class there. I was kind of early there, so there was just one student there. He arrived early, so I said, "Is falling in love and choosing to love the same thing?"

[7:43] You know, puzzle now what he's to say to this, huh? I said, "Well, see, you fall in love; you don't seem to have too much choice about it. But falling in love names more something in the what emotions, huh? Yeah. But choosing to love, it chosen love, you might call it. In Latin, you see, you have two words,

[8:09] and English doesn't have as many words, huh? But in Latin, you have amor, which originally names an emotion, right? And still has something of that connotation for us even today. If we say amorous, right, we're probably thinking of romantic love or something of this sort, right? And then they have a word Latin dilectio, which is tied up with the word for choice, so so sometimes I'll translate this in English as a kind of sense love, okay?

[8:53] And this is a what chosen love. Now you know, and as you like it there, when Phoebe falls in love, like often happens in the great poets, it's love at first sight, huh? And Shakespeare has a testimony there to Marlowe's love poem, and Phoebe says, "dead shepherd, right, referring to the poet Right, she sees the wisdom now of what his saying was, huh? Whoever loved, the love not at first sight, that's probably this sense love, right, huh?

[9:44] Struck us up the first time, to see? him. But now when you find our friend Hamlet saying to Horatio, "Since my dear soul was mistress of her choice, and could have been distinguished, her election has sealed before herself, right? He chose Horatio as his what friend, right? But notice that's more in the soul, in the will, which is in the soul. Now, what is the soul, mistress of her choice, Well, you can distinguish things and see which is better, right?

[10:24] Of course, he goes on to say why he chose him as a friend. For thou hast been as one suffering all, suffers nothing, right? A man that fortunes, buffets and rewards is paid with equal thanks. I just see now in Thomas's commentary there in the Philippians, right? That the good man, when bad things happen to him, as they will in life, right? He's not overly depressed or no suicidal, you know.

[10:55] But vice versa, when something good happens, he doesn't get all excited and carried away, right? Like people do, go crazy when they win the big money pot or something, right? And end up being more miserable than they were.

[11:12] He goes on to say, "Give me that man that is not a passion's slave. " than I will wear him in my heart's core, ay, in my heart of heart, as I do thee. All right. So that's really a love that is in the what will, right? Yes, sir. But it is kind of hard, you know, for the the average student to to see the distinction between those two, huh?

[11:38] And of course, you might have for someone something a bit of what both, right? Huh? So I'm saying to students, you know, in a marriage, does the priest ask you, you know, have you fallen in love with her? No, he doesn't ask that, right? He's asking her, him, and her to what? You choose this person as your husband. You choose this person as your wife, right?

[12:07] You see? Presumably, you'll fall in love, but that's what he's asking for that. He's not asking for that, right? You see? Choice is something different. huh? And here it's now it talks about the philosopher, the person, for the other in Latin in Greek. He says that the philosopher differs from the sophist by his choice of life. The philosopher is a lover of wisdom, and the sophist loves the fame.

[12:34] He loves to be admired. You know, he loves all that sort of stuff. See, and the philosopher would rather be wise than appear wise, and the sophist would rather appear wise than be wise. So he's not really a lover of wisdom. He's chosen really fame and glory.

[12:57] So we don't have two words in English, but sometimes we'll carry the word. We use the word "love," and we'll be tied with that, but then we can carry over and apply to the will. Speak of the love of wisdom, right? The love of God, right?

[13:16] So I thought you were saying there was this thing in college and. I syllogized right? You know, because the syllogism is an argument which some statements lay down. that one follows necessarily. It was to frustrate this little Polish philosopher, right? So one day he says, "Mr. Berkowitz, he says, "Do you have an emotional attachment to the syllogism?" I just laughed and I said, "I could have an emotional attachment to a girl, but not to a syllogism."

[13:42] So, so I mean, you know, there's, and it's not easy to separate those two kinds of love, right? Or the same way the joy that might be in the what, the will, and the joy that might be in the what, emotion. Yeah, yeah, and sometimes when they talk about you must love your neighbor, right? huh? They're not talking really so much about you must be emotionally attached to your neighbor, but you must love them in your will, huh?

[14:18] That's really where charity is, huh? And sense of,Memory. Doesn't Augustine have this thought of maybe like dividing the soul into three parts or something? What is that with it? When he has doesn't he have like intellect, will, and then memory? Yeah, we'll get into that next. Okay, question here. Oh, next week. Okay. Okay.

[14:48] So he says joy and sadness are in the concupiscible, which is one of the two kinds of emotion, which is a power of the sensing part. Okay, the concupiscible appetite is called in Latin, is the ability that follows upon sensing something agreeable or disagreeable to the senses. And so, if something is pleasing to my senses, I have a kind of pleasure. If it's painful to them, pain, I rejoice, sadness, and then I want it or I want to avoid it or something, right?

[15:23] But that's more bodily thing. But it's manifest that the separated souls are sad about their punishments or rejoice about the rewards. Therefore, the concupiscible appetite or power, this concupiscibilis, remains in the separated soul.

[15:46] Moreover, Augustine says in the twelfth book upon Genesis to the letter, no letter, no fling around this time, no loose commentary that he's accused of doing by Jerome,

[16:07] because the soul, when the body what lies without sense, not yet entirely dead, it lives or sees a certain what some things according to imaginary vision. So also when it is separated, entirely from the body, but the imagination is a power of the sensing part. Therefore, the sensing, the power of the sensing part, remains in the separated soul, and consequently all other powers. This is an argument something from authority, right?

[16:39] Augustine seems to say that the soul is going to imagine something, right? In the same way that Hamlet says there when he's thinking of death or suicide there now, to be or not to be, and then of course you know not to be sure what happens after death, right? What knows what dreams might come when we shuff it off this portal coil, right? But dreams is a form of what imagining, right?

[17:06] I don't want dreams come after death. But if dreams came after death, then some of the sensing powers would remain in the soul, right? Because that's a kind of sensing, huh? Okay.

[17:25] Now, but said in the book of ecclesiastical dogmas, something like an Christian symbol arm, I guess something medieval equivalent to that. Man is constituted from two substances: the soul with its reason, and what the flesh, the body with its what senses, right? So you don't take the senses with you when your soul separates from your body, except as in a what principle or root, but you don't have the actual senses there.

[17:57] But you do have your understanding and your will. That root just means potential. In a sense, yeah, in a in a reason. If you have the body again joined to the soul, then then the power will flow from it. Yeah.

[18:13] I answer: It should be said that all the powers of the soul are compared to the soul alone as to a beginning or a source, right? But some powers are compared to the soul alone as a subject, and those are the immaterial powers: the understanding or reason and the what the will. And these powers necessarily is necessary that these powers remain in the soul when the body is what destroyed, right?

[18:50] And later on, we take up the understanding again. I find very interesting the different way in which the soul understands when it's in the body and the way the soul understands when it's what separated from the body. Doesn't understand exactly the same way, but we'll find out what that is. And the way it understands when it's separate from the body is more like the way the angels understand.

[19:16] So ask your guard and angel about that. Okay. But some powers are in the what conjunction of the soul and the bodies of the subject. This is all the sensitive powers, all the powers of sensitive part, and the what feeding feeding power. You know, somebody said the nutritive power. I like to be more concrete. Say the feeding power, huh?

[19:48] But when the subject of the power is destroyed, right? Or when the subject of an accident is destroyed, the accident is not able to remain, right?

[20:00] Once, when the conjunction of soul and body is corrupted, these powers do not remain in act, but in virtue or in power only, right? As in a beginning or root, example. Okay.

[20:17] That's a nice carry over the word root. Yeah. Right. Use it sometimes in talking about. Theological virtues. Yeah, which one do they call root? No,

[20:32] it's interesting. I just keep thinking of the form, which is charity. Yeah, yeah. Do they use that the same way? Really? I don't know. I have to check it again, but i think maybe the charity is called root. yeah, yeah. yeah. But notice the difference between being there as a root, or principle, and being in there as a what subject, right? Where the thing exists in act.

[21:03] Thinking of Ephesians says that rooted in love. Could be yeah. The same time yeah. Yeah, because it's not a virtue without charity. It has to have charity to be a virtue. Yeah. Okay. And then Thomas goes on to say, "and thus it is false, " what some people say that these powers remain in the soul when the body is corrupted. And it'd be even more false to say that the acts of these powers remain in a separated soul, because there's no action of such powers except through a bodily organ.

[21:42] So right now I get the ability to digest food. do. You know that? I have the ability to grow. I guess I might be the most about growing now, right? And the ability to reproduce, huh? You say. But I'll have none of those abilities in my separated soul, actually, huh? And even more so, he says, I won't have won't be digesting any food,

[22:08] right? The same way for the sensing powers, right? Huh? I won't have the ability to see in my separated soul to hear, smell, taste, or touch, and I won't be seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, or touching. I'll be understanding and willing, right? Not those, huh? Until I get my body back again, huh?

[22:37] So that song there, huh? Oh God, you are my God, whom I seek. For you, my flesh pines and my soul thirsts. Right. See, the flesh also wants to be in on this, huh? And therefore, the resurrection, right? And Thomas says explicitly that in heaven there will be laus vocalis, huh? There will be vocal praise, huh? I was saying to somebody the other day that I said music, in some way, is the origin of poetry.

[23:06] And we can see that in the famous words like tragedy, which means what? Goat ode, goat song. Comes from ode meaning song. Comedy, huh? Comes in the word for song. Yeah, things like lyric poetry. And we still use what other words? Huh? Dante's famous work is divided into what? Three. Cantos, huh? Oh. There's thirty-three cantos and thirty-three, and one got thirty-four to make up a hundred, right?

[23:41] Fibby number, huh? But those are called cantos, huh? Huh? Hmm. And so Spenser has that too in his things, huh? Cantos. Uh, so in a sense, music is behind what poetry, huh? Fiction. But there's not going to be any fiction in this world, huh? Not going to be watching tragedies and comedies, huh? I think the more you understand about tragedy and comedy, in different ways, they reflect the fall nature of man.

[24:10] Tragedy and comedy. Oh. Something tragic and something comic about man and his fall. But that will be removed. in The next world, right? There'll be no, no reason. But there will be music because of that things that Augustine points out. You know that Paul the Sixth in his famous sermon there, his speech on the feast of Saint Cecilia. I mentioned that before. I think to you, one of the best things ever seen.

[24:44] You know, it's kind of a paraphrase, a little golden chain that Paul the Sixth has taken from Augustine, right? About the connection between music and love. Oh yeah. Shakespeare's always bringing that out. Music be the food of love. Play on. Connection between music and love. That we want to sing about the person we love. And and Paul VI is talking there for the liturgy, which is a service of charity, should have music, huh?

[25:13] But you can also apply it to heaven, right? But also, music is the most perfect way of of honoring somebody. You know, when the soldiers come back, the march will play, right? Huh? When the president of the United States comes in, they play what? Hail to the chief, right? Yeah. Before you get off, the thing you just made before about tragedy and comedy. Tragedy is pretty, pretty basic.

[25:35] It's it's something that you want to avoid, and there's nothing good about it. But comedy, you know, laughter, that kind of thing. There's kind of a mixed bag to that, you know. Yeah. You know, it's like in heaven. I hope that there's laughter, but I hope it's. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean the the the foibles, you know. Aristotle says that the object of comedy is something ugly that's not what painful, right?

[25:59] And so you know, you know Falstaff, you know, you know he's kind of ridiculous, right? Yeah. And you know, if you read the Merry Wives of Windsor, where Falstaff is making these proposals to the Merry Wives of Windsor, and they play tricks on him, right? And of course, one of the tricks there where you know the husband is coming up, and they say, "Well, we've got to conceal you," so they have him put in this big basket of filthy clothes, you know, and the servants carry out the basket and dump it into the water, you know, and he steams coming up.

[26:32] Well, I was thinking this fat guy. See, I mean, he looks like you know something you would laugh at, right? Because he's so fat, huh? Isn't it? And sometimes even you know a child will laugh, but they see the person who's you know gross and in size, huh? And so there's all kinds of, you know, but ugliness won't have any place in heaven.

[26:58] But you know how how so much of comedy depends upon what mistakes, huh? Shakespeare's first comedy is based on on Plautus, right? Whose comedies are based on the Greek comedies, but the name of it is the Comedy of Errors, huh? And in the Comedy of Errors, there, uh, some twins have been separated in the course of time, right? And then they end up by chance in the same city, and one's confused by the other, right?

[27:32] For the other, and all these humorous things that happen because of that. So you have to be kind of mistaken, huh? And all kinds of mistakes that don't really. You see, tragedy is about mistakes too, but mistake that leads to tragic results, huh? You see. But the comedy are just what mistakes that don't lead to these terrible consequences, but make us laugh, right? There won't be any mistakes in heaven, huh?

[28:05] It'll be perfectly. eliminated, huh? I remember one time after you know a literary performance or you know stage play or something like that, and I went up to one of the girls who'd been in the play. I thought she'd been the play, but it was her sister who'd been the play. So I'm congratulating her, right, on her performance. What do you do?

[28:30] I mean, there'll be harm done by this, right? We just got to laugh about the things, see. And sometimes somebody takes you to be somebody more than you are, you know, somebody who's, you know, very important, you know, and so on. And you know, there's some people who stumble famous people too, and they get on an airplane or a bus, and that's so and so, the famous actor, or so and so, the famous politician, and.

[28:59] I was coming down one of the main streets there downtown in Worcester there, I know, a month or two ago, and I thought it was one of my colleagues there in the car next to me, you know, and so they kind of pulled up, you know, coming to the stop sign with a red light or it was, and you know, I rolled down the window. I just had a seatbelt over you know, and the guy saw me roll down the window down the window, so you knew I wanted his attention.

[29:19] I went down. Dan, oh, I wasn't Dan. No, not Dan. Yeah, I mean, those things are funny, you see, but there's all kinds of little things like that that happen, huh? So,

[29:38] all kinds of little little mistakes, you know. This one guy I knew in Quebec used to tell the story. I guess he was he was quite active in the parish and so on. And one time he was going by the parish house, and he really had to visit the men's room, right? Okay, so he kind of knew the you know the housekeeper and stuff, and I use it well, yeah, this is the situation, right?

[30:04] Well, when he flushed the toilet, he wouldn't stop coming. The water, so it's overflowing. You imagine being in the. How you describe this stuff is Bobby.

[30:21] It's very embarrassing, but you laugh about it in in what retrospect, you know, that the things went wrong, you see. And but you don't make those mistakes. There won't be any bathrooms that bad in heaven. So, like all these little things, huh, that happen that are that are laughable, huh?

[30:47] We were these little trickster brothers, and my father had inculcated me as a little boy, you know, that when you play the national anthem, you stand at attention. Say, I shared a bed with my brother Mark, and we had good beds in there, right? So I jump into bed at night time, and my brother Mark starts humming the national anthem. My being's uneven. Jump out of bed, attention, right?

[31:11] And how many nights this went on? You very nicely. He thought it was very funny, right? You see, even my father who'd been, you know, in the U. S. Army in the First World War, and you know they took this seriously, right? I mean, you you show honor to the country and the flag, and when the national anthem is played, you stand attention, right? That's I knew you did that, right?

[31:34] I mean, he won't be able to fool me that way the next life. How old were you Okay. How old were you then? Not old enough to know better. And one time I got in a in a fight with Marcus, you know, and we're we're reconciling each other, and so my brother Richard, you know, being noticed, you know, about the animus thing, and he says, "Well, let's let's really have a definitive fight here, you know."

[32:14] And so he said, "We're going to, you know, mark off a an area of the backyard and put a fence around it, you know, a rope around it, and we're going to invite all the kids in the neighborhood to watch." the fight So we're going through all these plans, you know. These fights, you know, they don't, you don't know what they're even about after after an hour or two, you know, you're mended before.

[32:35] And all the work we had to do to you know you know to mark off the land and so on, what are we fighting about? Kind of clever the way you did it, you see, you know, and how much fight been in there, you know? Let's let's let's delay and let's really have a definitive decision, you know. Yeah, and we'll have everybody here to watch. Anyway, now

[33:00] the first objection was taken from that book on the spirit and the soul, and Thomas says, like he often says when there's an objection to that book, that that book does not have authority, right? It's not written by Augustine. Because Augustine is someone you don't you don't blatantly neglect what Augustine says, huh? Whence, what is written there can be what rejected

[33:36] with the same facility by which it is said. Okay, He used to have a phrase like that, you know. what is gratuitously asserted can be gratuitously denied. Mm-hmm. Nevertheless, one could say, right, that the soul does draw out itself these powers, not in act, but in what? In ability or in power, right? Okay. So just as the fire, right, doesn't burn the what paper unless you bring the paper to the fire, right?

[34:11] So from the soul, that doesn't follow those powers that are in the body unless the body is there, right? But the power, right, to produce those powers, right, remains in the soul. Okay. That's why you want your body back again too, huh? To be complete man.

[34:34] Now the second objection is taken from the fact that the powers of the soul are to the soul as properties are to the what species, huh? Okay, so don't they always accompany it, right? But Thomas again in the reply will see an objection, right? Because some are properties of the soul by itself, right? Others of the soul when it's informing the what body, right?

[35:04] So he says those powers which we say do not remain in act in the separated soul are not properties of the soul alone, but of the what conjunction of soul and body, huh? Okay.

[35:21] So there's a difference in the way in which they are properties of the soul, right? One is a property of the soul by itself, and the other of the soul in the body, huh?

[35:37] Now in the third objection is taken from this remark of Aristotle about the old man gaining the eye of a young man, right? Again he turns that to the what the root way in which the power remains in the soul.

[35:58] He says these powers are not debilitated and the body is debilitated because the soul remains unchangeable, which is the what virtual beginning or source of these powers, huh?

[36:22] Now the fourth objection and the fifth objection are based upon the equivocation of the words I was saying about my students there with the word before, right? That the memory which remains in the separated soul is the memory that is really in reason itself, huh? And this distinction will be made more explicitly later on. when we take up reason, huh? Okay.

[36:50] Not the memory which is a part of the sensing soul. So the word memory is what equivocal there, right? And that's important later on when we talk about memory and the image of the Trinity. In it's in the intellectual part of the soul that the image of the Trinity is found in the spirit, right? Not in the soul insofar as it's the form of the body.

[37:14] The same with the fifth objection that sadness and joy are not in the separated soul are in the separated soul not according to what? The sense desire, which would be the emotions, but according to the what intellectual desire, which is the will, has also is found in the case of the angels. Now the sixth one is actually taken from Augustine, but as you know, Augustine changed his opinion about some things, right?

[37:46] I think it's a marvelous sign, you know. I think every intellectual should be required to write at the end of his life a book like Augustine did. It's called the Book of Retractions. You've seen that book, huh? Mm-hmm. For Augustine goes back over all the works he's read. You can get his hands on anyway, right? And says, "Now, if I was to say this again, I think I might not say exactly this way, or you know.

[38:08] " And sometimes he rejects actually what he said before. That's kind of a marvelous thing, you know. This should be required of all these, you know, overbusy intellectuals.

[38:26] Augustine speaks there. He says, "Inquiring, not what asserting, right? huh? " Whence something said there, he what retracts, and they give the reference down here to the Book of Retractions.

[38:48] There's a couple places where Thomas changes opinion too, you know. Yeah. No, and though I said otherwise elsewhere, right? Oh. Yeah, but it's it's much more rare than Augustine has, you know, a bigger book, Retractions. No, it's Thomas had the benefit of both Augustine and Boethius and and Aristotle, everyone else that was before. Augustine is kind of you know, somewhat on his own. Yeah.

[39:26] Now, coming back a bit to to music a bit, in music in the Baroque period and the classical period, the major and the minor key were seen as suitable to different what emotions. So, if you go through the pieces, say of Mozart, is very Mozart is very sensitive to the use of the key and the change of the key.

[40:04] He's going to represent joy, the emotion of joy, by a major key, okay? It might be G major, it might be B flat, it might be C major, right? Some different things, but you represent. Sadness in a what minor key, right? Okay. So you have the two so-called heavenly twins, these two quintets Mozart wrote, huh? And one is in what C major. Now, when you say it's in C major, it doesn't mean that every single movement is in C major, right?

[40:47] And that you may not go into, you know, from time to time, but it's dominated by C major. And then you have the quintet, and then you have the G minor quintet.

[41:08] But here you're representing joy, and here you're representing what sadness? Some people think that the G minor quintet has something to do with the

[41:26] death of Mozart's father, right? But the point is, you wrote these two at the same time, right? And as Plato said huh to the tragic and the comic poet, "If you guys know what you're doing, you can write. " Yeah. You can write a good tragedy if you write a good comedy too. And you can write good comedies if you write good tragedy. And Mozart writes both, right?

[41:49] See, at the same time, one is, of 5: 15, the other is 5: 16, right? And they're at the same time. Um. Now, he's also going to represent, He'll tend to represent hope by a major key, huh? And he's going to represent boldness by the major key, by sadness

[42:27] and despair, fear and anger. He'll tend to represent by a what The minor key, huh? Mm-hmm. Okay. I was talking to my old professor one time to serve, you know. He didn't particularly like Mozart's Requiem, or what else did he like?

[43:00] Giovanni's going down to hell, and so on. But Mozart's representing fear in all these ones he didn't like, huh? And he was using, you know, D minor, huh? Okay. So the D minor, the 20th-century channel, you have representation of anger there in the D minor part, okay? But you know, towards the end, it changes to major key. It's a beautiful piece. The Adagio B minor, you know, for the piano, it's a beautiful, you know, kind of a moderate sadness, right?

[43:31] And gradually, the end, it changes to kind of a tranquil joy, right? It's really beautiful the way it changes. But then it's going to go into the major what key, right? And if you study, you know, some of these things, I'm not a, you know, musically educated person, but you know, like if you study, look at the structure of the op, of these say the piano concertos, there's like kind of beginning, middle, end, like say in the first movement, and development there, there's a turn to the back, right?

[44:03] And the melodies that came before were in the major key, they come back in the minor key, right? Representing the change in what Emotions? huh? But now there's a tendency, not only you know to use the major key for those emotions. And the minor key for these emotions. but There's also a tendency in Mozart to use certain keys more for his concupiscible joy, right? Another one's for boldness, so a march is going to be likely in D major, right, or C major.

[44:45] What's a certain feeling for these keys? huh? But a love aria might be in G major or B flat major. huh? B flat is sort of in between. So there's kind of a sensitivity in Mozart for the keys, right? But you're representing in those what pieces the emotions, huh?

[45:08] And kind of the best one of the best little essays if you ever a chance to see it there by John Ostling huh? He taught at our college and he taught Notre Dame. Logician. Until his death, he wrote the logic book that became kind of a bestseller, right? Logic: The Art of Defining Reasoning. He's also gifted musically, right? And and he had left the college of St.

[45:31] Thomas before I got there, though I had some conversations with him. But my brother Richard and my cousin Donald, they had his chorus on the poetics and so on. Oh wow. And as he'd sit down at the piano and show how Mozart's piece was put together, Oh wow, That the whole pieces would be getting middle, and end, that each part would be getting, middle, and end, yeah.

[45:49] And Mozart can't, you know, follows entirely. Yeah. I remember seeing a book on the Nozzi di Figaro, which is the name of Mozart's one of his five great operas, The Marriage of Figaro. And it's probably the head of the graduate school there in Chicago, the music, you know. But the whole opera, like the Nozzi di Figaro and Don Giovanni, the whole opera is written one of these keys.

[46:17] It doesn't mean you stay in just that key, but you start in that key and you come back to it at the end, and the whole thing has harmonically a beginning, middle, and end. Wow. As a whole, the whole opera, and then each part has a beginning, middle, and end. It's perfectly worked out. They're absolutely amazing. You know, but you kind of have a sense of what he's doing when you listen to the thing.

[46:41] So Mozart, but anyway, Ostling has a famous little thing in in the Thomist of the period, and it's called "Towards the Evaluation of Music." And it's about how the music of the 18th century, the Baroque and then Mozart and Haydn and so on, is superior, right, to the music of the Romantic period. Because in the Baroque period and Mozart, you represent the emotions in a way that's in harmony with reason.

[47:12] Oh. And you rule the emotions the way a father rules a son, not not the way a tyrant rules a slave, right? Um. So the emotions get their play, but they're moderated by reason. But the one thing the Romantic could not allow. You know what? This subordination of emotions to reason. You can kind of see that in, the, in, you know, the, kind of something, you know, romantic, you know, like, you know, Tchaikovsky.

[47:40] would be out trying to drop himself, you know, because some woman and so on. And we had the letters of Tchaikovsky. You know, he would go to listen to Mozart because he's trying to escape from all the turmoil of the nineteenth century, right, in his own his own life. So, I

[47:58] also had some articles too during the bicentennial back to the original first bicentennial back in '56, right? Right. Yeah, the birth of Mozart. You know, some of the national magazines, but that was kind of a thing that influenced me a lot to listen more to Mozart and so on. It's called "Towards an Evaluation of Music" and talks a little bit about what music is and how some music is better than others.

[48:24] And I don't have it, but but Boulay made a collection of texts of the ancients as the importance of music. And I know, you know, Thomas himself in the commentary of the Gospel of Matthew, you know, where Christ is saying, "We played music, didn't dance," you know, and he makes remarks about music and he says, "Nothing so changes the soul of man as music." And he reads, you know, how Hitler, you know, used music, you know, it's kind of frightening to see how powerful music is.

[49:00] Of course, the great poets like Homer represents that with the sirens. You know, the music of the sirens is so persuasive, you know, that you want to go hear it, and then before you know it, your ship crashes on the rock and that's into you, right? And Odysseus knows, you know, the danger of this, right? So he has everybody what put wax in their ears so they can't hear it.

[49:27] But he decides he wants to hear it, right? But he has the mast of the ship, so what he has them do before they get to the they can hear it. They have is tied into the mast like this. They really, really tie it tight. See, and he says, "Now, when we get near, and I can hear it, nobody else can hear it because they're waxed ears.

[49:45] If I say, you know, you know, release me, or you know, you know, don't do it, but get more rope and tie you tighter, because they have to do that, right? " Right, you know, Homer is representing there how powerful music is, right? That despite all the wisdom and the, you know, how how Odysseus outsmarts a lot of people and things and monsters on the way back, you know.

[50:08] But even a man as wise and crafty and and as the great Odysseus, he would be done in by what music, huh? And Shakespeare talks about you know how music can provoke good to bad or bad to good, um. Dryden, you know, has a poem there, the Ode on the Feast of Saint Cecilia. That's the patroness of music, And it's about Alexander the Great, you know. And he's had the big feasts there, and they're playing one kind of music, kind of martial music, you know.

[50:44] He's back, he's in battle, you know, that kind of you know presence of us ahead as a soldier, right, you know. And then all of a sudden, the music changes to more amorous. He's putting his arm around the girl, and so on. But he's like just putty in the hands of the what musician, yeah.

[51:01] And you know, during the American War of Independence, he used to go around, you know, and play some of these, you know, kind of martial things, you know. And young boy in the village, you know, wants to join up, you know. You know, this is the thing to do.

[51:18] I remember, you know, I used to play, you know, when the kids were little I'd play some marches, you know, some nice real English marches and so on, and you know, march around the house, you know, and so on, you know. And I want to be a hero too someday, you know, and so on. And and sometimes I listen to marches myself. When I was a little boy, I used to like to try to find marches on the radio all the time.

[51:39] And even now, I like to hear marches once in a while. And and I say it feeds my delusions of grandeur. In the town landing, and sometimes I'm tired, I'm weary, and we're just a world to put the marches on, you know. And my wife comes home or something like this. Oh, you're one of those moos," she said.

[51:58] So even though you know I kind of laugh at myself doing this, you can see how how this music is very, yeah, really really influence you a lot, huh? And you hear some of the the music, the marching music that the Nazis had, you know, really really get you into the mood, you know. I'm almost nothing a Nazi idea for a while. I mean, it's really it's got something to it.

[52:23] Pages and even you know Mozart's music, you know, Masonic music, you know, which that's really kind, you know, and really get kind of carried away at music, you know. So you see, you realize how powerful thing music is. And Machiavelli used to say that persuasion, which literally means through the sweet, huh? But persuasion is found first in music, he says, and then in fiction, and last in rhetoric.

[52:54] Yes. And one thing you notice about music, you know, this common observation that if somebody's humming a melody, you know, for a while and stops, someone else starts humming it. And you know, or if you hear a melody particularly liked at all, you see, it's just you know, someone else been humming it. You notice that, and you find that we're taken over in a sense by that music.

[53:26] What did you know? If you know enough about music to explain what the difference is between a major and a minor? No, I wouldn't try to give the reason why, you know. But I say that this is so, right? Yeah. That is around. I don't know. Sometimes they broke it that they really saw that the minor key is more suitable for certain emotions, huh? And the major key is suitable for the other emotions, huh?

[53:54] Mm-hmm. So joy, hope, and boldness, huh? Confidence, boldness, ah, is more suitably represented in the major key. Now it doesn't depend just upon the key; it depends upon the rhythm and so on, right? But other things being equal, the major key is more suitable for that. And for sadness, or for anger, or for fear, or despair, right? Huh? The minor key. And then, as they say, there may be. Especially in Mozart, who's it's kind of amazing if they compare Mozart, say, you know, Haydn is very close to him in some ways.

[54:33] But Haydn will go from one key modulate from one key to another, kind of like a exercise almost, you know, style. By Mozart, it's always more significant when he goes from one key to the key. He wants to say something, right? Wants to represent things a certain way. The same way when Mozart uses, you know, counterpoint and things of this sort, it's not just a style like it is for the Baroque period, you know.

[54:56] But he wants to represent a certain intensity of emotion, right? A certain depth, and he does it. So Mozart is much more moderate in his use of keys than Haydn is, huh? But it's always much more significant when he does it. And it's like you know Shakespeare, there, you know, where just in a few words he he he gets a whole mood or a whole scene set, huh?

[55:21] And Mozart, just in a few things, you know, huh? You know, he does things that that you could miss if you don't hear it carefully, huh? Carefully, it's actually amazingly Mozart does his music. But but in general, I'd say the 18th century is is

[55:40] superior to the nineteenth century Maybe the nineteenth century is superior to the 19th century, maybe the 19th century to the 20th century, in terms of you know some fine music and the rest of it, huh?

[55:50] Of course, you you see the composers of the 19th century looking back to Mozart and seeing that they they what they lost, you know. And you see, you know, you know what's his name, Tchaikovsky, you know, writing the Mozartiani, you know, in honor of Mozart, you know, he'll take it or Chopin will take like Chidrim Lomano and vary it and so on. Brahms, you know, will look at the the Nazi the figure and he says, "This is unbelievable," he says.

[56:19] No one's ever done this before, huh? Like every single thing in there is perfect, huh? This has never been done before, he says. Huh? You know, the limit can do this. You know, he's just just overwhelmed, huh? And when the French composer says, when he hears Mozart, all my ambition turns to dust, you know, that sort of thing, huh? You know. Of course, Haydn, you know, was the first, you know, man to make the you know definitive judgment, right?

[56:49] He when he heard uh Mozart's uh quartets he later on dedicated to Haydn, he says to his father, you know, you know, as an honest man, I say to you, before God, right, to your son, this is the greatest composer known to me, right? You know, He saw, how great Mozart was. It's kind of marvelous to see that, huh? Sure. I actually give there's a few examples, you know, of the older man from whom the younger man learned, but is going to be surpassed by the younger man.

[57:17] Sure. You know, Albert the Great recognizing that Thomas is going to surpass him. You know, he arranged the debate between himself and Thomas. Which Thomas won in front of everybody? You know, he says this guy you call the dumb ox is bound to be heard around the world. You see, and Plato's supposed to have come into the school one day, and Aristotle was there, and not many anybody else.

[57:38] He says, "Well, the mind of the school was here." You see, I like to think that that's you know that that's an anecdote, but I mean you know this is the way Plato was. You know, there was none of that envy that you have in the academic world, you know. You know, the proud are always disputing among themselves. Then you see the same thing with Haydn and Mozart, huh?

[57:59] Mozart originally was what learning from Haydn, and then he surpassed Haydn, and Haydn knew he'd surpassed him, right? At the end of his life, Haydn was imitating Mozart. And like Albert the Great, you know, who lived you know into his 80s, and Thomas had died at 49, So, at the end of his life, Albert the Great is going down to Paris to defend the teaching of Thomas Aquinas.

[58:21] You see, I think that's really marvelous to see that, huh? To see, yeah, yeah. You don't have it much, you know. It's kind of funny you read some of the modern philosophers, you know, where this guy's going to be the great pupil, so and so, and then they're preaching it all, and he's got their own system. It's just pathetic, really, huh? It's kind of interesting because the scripture, you know, that Jesus says that a pupil never surpasses his teacher.

[58:47] Yet these great minds were humble enough to to say, "No, that's not true. There are pupils that surpass me." Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's good to see that. You see, that's what I like about Washington Irving, who I think is a very good writer. You know, Washington Irving, you know, replaced Addison as the master of English prose, and he became the world figure. You know, even Japan, if you want to learn correct English, you study Washington Irving.

[59:18] But at the end of his life, there, you know, Washington Irving said to his nephew, who was helping him, you know, gather his papers and so on. You know, it's really idle for us to boast of anything with Shakespeare in mind, you know. Shakespeare said it all, right? Huh? No, Shakespeare said one or two others. That's it. You know, the rest of us have nothing to really brag about it.

[59:38] I think that's marvelous, right? And he's famous enough, and he's the first American author really to get acknowledged around the world. And they still call that the age of Washington Irving, huh? That first period in our literature, But he just recognized, you know,

[59:56] nothing compared to Shakespeare, right? Kind of marvelous to see that, huh? But a good humility, I think. You know, just recognition of that. But the Baroque, which is very good too, go listen to Corelli, huh? You ever been to the Pantheon in Rome? Yeah, and well, they buried Corelli in there, right? That's quite an honor, huh? To be the Pantheon, you know. When I hear the music of Corelli, you know, I always say to somebody, "Know how right they were to bury him in the Pantheon, right?"

[1:00:37] You know, even these, these, you know, pieces only when they were perfected, right? Huh? And really, really, really just perfect. I figure I've been a little disordered in my life, you know. I put a little bit of Corelli on, and I rectified just by listening to Corelli. Yeah. No, but I mean, it's terrible the correction of music nowadays, what it's doing to kids? Well, rap doesn't even have a rhythm to it.