De Anima (On the Soul)
125. The Eleven Emotions: Their Place in Ethics, Rhetoric, Poetry, Music, and Talk About God (with a Digression on Mozart)
https://berquistcourse.com/course/philosophy/4-de-anima/125-the-eleven-emotions-their-place-in-ethics-rhetoric-poetry/

[0:00] Could uh, oh, any private plan? But any chance we could review the eleven emotions? Yeah, that's what I was going to do now. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

[0:12] There's there's six emotions that belong to the concupiscible, and five to the irascible. And so let me just diagram that again here. Okay. Now,

[0:25] the concupiscible emotions arise directly from something being what? Agreeable or pleasant, therefore, to the senses, right? Or disagreeable to the senses. So, if something is agreeable to the senses,

[0:48] or something is disagreeable to the senses, Well, the first emotion, if something is agreeable to the senses, is I start to like it, right? Okay. Now you can call this first one liking or loving. but you're talking about the same emotion, basically, right? Loving is is stronger than liking, but okay. Now, if, however, it is disagreeable to my senses, then I dislike it, right? I hate it, right?

[1:35] Okay. Disliking or hate. Okay. Use that word Okay. So I taste the candy and I like it. Okay. I taste salmon. I find it disagreeable. I hate this. I dislike this. Okay. Um, remember as a kid, you know, so you get a box of chocolate. Maybe a box of chocolate, you know, that the family gets or something, huh? And a lot of times you weren't really identified, so you didn't know what you're getting exactly until you.

[2:18] have it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And what I didn't like was the maple ones. Oh. Those are the ones I didn't like. You know, and of course, once you you've bit into it, you know, it's yours. Yeah, yeah. Put it back in the box. Yeah. And so, oh, I got a maple. That's dislike it. Now, those are the two basic emotions, huh? Yes. but now, if you don't have what you like, then there arises from your liking or loving a wanting or a desire for it.

[2:57] Okay. Now, Latin the Latin word is desire. The English word is what wanting. So, if I like candy, I don't have any candy. Then I want some candy, right? I desire some candy. And what's interesting about the English word, which is you know really. A very marvelous language, English language, one of the best languages to use for philosophy.

[3:31] We also use the word "want" sometimes to mean "lack. " So I say to my students that I say, "You know, you're sadly wanting. " I don't mean you're sadly desiring something; you're sadly lacking something you should have. So you can see in that other meaning of want, this aspect of wanting, that's when the thing is absent, you might say,

[4:02] or not have, right? When what I like is absent, or I don't have what I like, then I have the second emotion, which is a wanting or desire.

[4:22] And this is a more obvious one because, as a sort of what, we're very much aware of that. They lack something, so hunger and thirst are examples of this, right?

[4:37] I like food, but when it's been absent for a while, haven't had food for a while, then I what have this hunger, this desire for food, huh? Okay.

[4:53] I don't have a good name in English for the opposite of that—the one down here—but we could say use the Latin word "aversion, that's a turning away from, right? Okay. So

[5:15] now, if, however, I get what I desire, when I have what I like, or when what I like is present, then I have a feeling of what? Joy, or pleasure, or delight, right? Okay. Now,

[5:54] suppose I can't avoid or avoid very well what is disagreeable to my senses. Well, then I have what sadness or pain. So if I come to dinner to your house, and you're serving salmon, which just happened to be something I was also, I have a serious pain. I don't want to

[6:20] fill this out, but you know, what do we say about the Saint Margaret Mary? You know. Great saint there, the Sacred Heart. Her family apparently had a

[6:36] terrible dislike of cheese. Strange for a French, you know. Oh. Apparently, her father had you know it was it was I don't know the right year or something like that. Yeah. And when she went into the convent, you know how sometimes there's an arranged marriage at the time of entry, you know, like sometimes a bit dowry paid, you know, various things. But one thing was that she would never be required to eat cheese while she was in the in the convent, huh?

[7:02] They say. And of course, she wasn't, you know, they didn't fulfill that entire that agreement. Oh. But that's a good example, right? So sometimes it's disagreeable to your senses, right? So you hate cheese in this case, right? And therefore, you turn away from it, right? Try to avoid it, huh? Yeah. But if you're forced is forced upon you, then there's going to be what, you know, real sadness.

[7:30] pain. So you have six emotions here. Okay. The basic ones being liking or loving on the one hand, and disliking or hating. Huh? I don't know if you can even read my. thing here, what I'm saying here. Liking or loving. Yeah. Huh. But then, as they say, there are two other ones that arise from those, right? But one arises from it in the absence, right, of what you like.

[8:06] Yeah. And the other in the presence of it, huh? Yeah. Now, if there's no difficulty in my getting what I desire, huh? Then there's not going to be any irascible emotion. See? But if I desire the candy, or I desire the meat, but you also want this very same candy I want, the very same piece I want, or the very same steak, where it is. Ah. Or if there arises some difficulty in my getting that thing, right?

[8:55] Huh? You know, it's hard to get it now, right? Huh? Okay. Then, from desire, there can arise one of two emotions in the irascible. If I think or estimate that I can overcome the difficulties in the way of the what thing I desire, right? Hmm. Then there arises something called what hope. Okay. And this moves me to make an effort to get right. Yeah. The good that I desire that is hard to get, right?

[9:34] Okay. So you have the example there: the fox that wants the grapes, huh? Yeah. And but the grapes are up high, so it's a difficult good, right? Now, so long as the fox estimates that he can maybe reach them, right? He has hope of reaching them, right? By jumping up in the air as he does, huh? You know the story, or whatever it is. He has hope, right?

[10:02] Huh? But after jumping for many times, his hope what? Yeah, because he still can't reach them, huh? And so you can fall into the opposite of hope, which is despair. Despair, right?

[10:19] Okay. For the man desires the woman, right? Huh? But other men desire her too, right? So she's not only good but a difficult good, right? Now, if he thinks he can win her, then he has this hope that he's making effort, right? But if the other guys are more clever, or more handsome, or more wealthy, or whatever combination, then he might fall into what despair, right? Huh?

[10:54] Okay. So you see how these two emotions, in the irascible, hope and despair, arise from desire when what you desire is what difficult to get, right? And there are impediments in the way, right? Okay. This is why we carry the name of this emotion over to the will, and has given a name even to one of the theological virtues, huh? Because you're moving there towards a good that is difficult to get, right?

[11:29] Okay. Now, the same thing with aversion now here, right? Huh? The thing that I'm turning away from, if it's not easy to avoid it, right? If it's difficult to avoid it, right? Huh? In fact, it might be forced upon me, right? Okay. Then there arises the feeling of what? Fear, right? Huh?

[12:12] So suppose I'm a little boy there, and there's a big bully there, right? Huh? Remember this big bully, you know? Unless I've lost my rubber in his yard, and my dad he says, "You come in my yard, and I'll cut your ears off." Nope. Big kid, you know. I was a little kid. I was scared stiff, right? Went home and got my brother Richard. We'll see about that.

[12:38] Okay. So, if there's something bad that you want to avoid, right? But you have to make that you may not be able to overcome or resist or avoid it, and you have fear, right?

[12:59] But if you think you can overcome that, that name, right? Then you have the opposite of fear, which is boldness. Sometimes you use the word confidence too, but confidence is sometimes used for hope too. So boldness is more of the name for the. The opposite of fear, there. So fear and boldness arise from aversion, and the way like hope and despair arise from desire, right? But only when there's a difficulty, right?

[13:41] Okay. Now, if you get the good that you desire, then there's joy or pleasure, and there's no difficulty in joy or pleasure. But suppose something bad is present or forced upon you, right? Now, well, if you estimate that you can do something to to get rid of what is causing you the sadness or pain, then there arises what? Anger, right? Huh? Okay.

[14:28] So sadness or pain arises or can arise anger. Okay. So for example, if you're stepping on my shoes, right? My toes and causing me some pain, right? I say you're on my toes, and you say so what?

[14:52] Well, if you're too big for me to do anything about, that might just you know fear, you know, and go on suffering, right? If I think I can what? you kill you, right? And I'll get angry now, and I'll shove you like that, and you can see the anger rising in me, right? Okay. And in a way, see, if somebody insults us or does something like that, they say causes certain pain by their, insult, right?

[15:17] And it's kind of like we're trying to repulse that by our what? Anger, huh? Okay. So that's a little more spiritual thing, right? Now with with fear, sometimes they distinguish between

[15:36] the white fear and the red fear by their their signs, huh? You know, when a man is in fear of death, sometimes he turns p white pale, right? White fear, huh? But if if it's a question of honor, then he has shame, right? Fear of dishonor, being disgraced, then he has the red fear, huh? And his face turns red, huh? Now the the physiological reason that they give for this is that when your what?

[16:08] Body is in danger, right? The blood withdraws into the source of life, right? Where it's needed. But if you're in danger of disgrace, which is an outward thing, then the blood rushes out to the cheeks there where the toe is on the outside.

[16:26] Shakespeare plays upon that one of the the sonnets there. Is that what physiologically happens? Have they studied that? Well, that's what the ancients say. but it makes some sense, huh? Yeah, true. Shakespeare's one of these sons where he's talking about how the flowers are stolen, you know, the perfume and the color is beloved, right? And now they're afraid of him, you know. But some of them are ashamed and they've turned red, and some are white; they're pale with with fear, of being destroyed.

[16:58] Okay. But notice, there's nothing analogous to that with joy or pleasure, right? Because there's no difficulty to enjoy pleasure, say, just enjoy yourself, see. But in sadness or pain, then there is getting rid of whatever is causing the sadness or pain, huh? Right. It might be some difficulty, you know, if you say, "So what?" You know, you can do about it, you know. But that may get you angry if you think you can, you know, do something about it and can repulse this person that's causing you this sadness or pain,

[17:33] huh? Doctor just remains sadness and maybe fear for the future. There's worse things happening. So there are five emotions in the irascible, and six in the concupiscible. Now, this distinction of the eleven emotions is very important for what ethics, right? And it's very important for rhetoric, huh? And it's very important for the what? poetic science. It's very important for music. Okay.

[18:23] Now, some of these, you know, can be subdivided, right? Okay. And there's more than one kind of sadness, for example. In my article there in comedy, I'm distinguishing between pity and envy, right, and melancholy, right. These are three kinds of sadness that are important to distinguish, huh? And pity is a kind of good sadness. I mean, pity is sadness over the misfortune of another,

[19:04] and but envy is a bad sadness, huh? It's sadness over the good fortune of another. Yeah. But melancholy is more sadness. Over your own miserable state, or the miserable state of the world, huh? Okay.

[19:32] Who's that? These are all forms of what sadness, right? But they're distinguished by the the object, right? In these cases, huh? Hmm. So that's very important now when you talk about ethics, right? Because envy would be something to be avoided, huh? Pity, something good, huh?

[19:59] But when Aristotle and Plato and Shakespeare, for that matter, talk about tragedy, they say that tragedy moves us to what pity and fear, and that it purges these emotions, huh? If you look at the prologue of Shakespeare to Romeo and Juliet, you'll mention those two emotions, pity and fear.

[20:28] Two households, both alike in dignity, in fair Verona, where we are seen, from ancient grudge breaking new mutiny, where civil blood makes civil hands unclean. From forth the fatal loins of these two foes, a pair of star-cost lovers take their life whose misadventured piteous overthrows, with their death bury their parents' right. The fearful passage of their death-marked love, they say. But Aristotle defined tragedy; those are the two emotions he put in the definition of tragedy.

[21:05] That it's a likeness of an action that is serious, complete, and of some magnitude, right? In sweetened language, right? Moving us to pity and fear, but purging or purifying these emotions, and that's a very subtle thing. So you try to understand tragedy, huh? You have to think of pity, which is a kind of sadness, and fear. But then you go to comedy, huh? Comedy moves us to mirth and to hope, and mirth is a form of what joy, huh?

[21:44] So the two main forms of fiction, tragedy and comedy, are about what we consider to be the four chief emotions: joy, sadness, hope, and fear. Hmm. Now that's another thing we go into sometimes, because Thomas, well, you usually have an article on that subject, right? He goes to the four principal passions, but you find it in all kinds of church documents. Huh? Look at the Church in the Modern World.

[22:13] that's big yet, so now, the joy, the sadness, the hopes, and fears. You go to Saint John of the Cross, you only have, you know, arguments of those four, rectifying them, right? Anyway.

[22:29] But now it's very important to know about these emotions, too, for ethics, because some of the moral virtues are about certain emotions. So, for example, courage is about fear and boldness, right?

[22:49] Moderation or temperance is about what? These ones here, what's pleasing to the senses, right? Okay. Desire and pleasure and so on. Patience is concerned with what? Sadness, right? Mildness is concerned with what? Anger, right? Magnanimity is concerned with hope and despair.

[23:19] You see. So, if you understand the emotions. You can understand the matter about which a number of the virtues and vices are concerned with, huh? Okay. Now it's also important for rhetoric, huh? Because the second means of persuasion of the rhetorician is the way he moves his audience's emotions and so on, right? And I was mentioning before how important in the courtroom are anger and pity, you know.

[23:54] But in in in deliberative rhetoric, the rhetoric used in the courtroom and not the courtroom, but in the political assembly, fear and boldness might be important, huh?

[24:09] So if we're we're talking about what whether we should go to war with such and such a nation, right? Fear and boldness, right? Obviously, if the audience is moved to boldness, they're going to be more apt to vote in favor of war, right? Now we can because you realize, you know, if you read you know the whole history of the First World War, you know, they thought the war was going to be over in a few weeks or months or something like that.

[24:37] They were really, you know, well, beat the heck off of those Frenchmen or those Germans, or whatever it was whatever side you're on, right? You know, and if they realize what the war is going to be like, you know, you read about Verdun, six hundred thousand people died. That's an awful one. And in the Battle of Verdun between the Germans and the French, six hundred thousand people.

[24:57] That's more than we did in some of our wars in the Civil War, you know, battles and so on. But you know, it's really incredible. Yeah. But but um uh that was the boldness there, right? Yeah. But again, if you had to sit in fear, right, then then you might be less inclined to go to war, right? Huh? You had this feeling of fear, right? So Aristotle in the second book of the rhetoric will talk about the emotions that are relative to what that influence people and the decisions they make on a jury or the decisions they make in the legislative or an election or something like that, right?

[25:41] So if I can, you know, get you to friendly feelings towards me, I can, you know, if I get you feeling, you know, unfriendly towards somebody, that's going to influence your vote and your, you know, so there are different emotions and different emphasis upon different emotions. But it's very important for for understanding what the second means of persuasion in rhetoric. I think anger in rhetoric is the first emotion Aristotle takes up there.

[26:09] This is an obvious one, huh? Yeah. Um. Okay. So it's useful. It's very necessary for ethics, then, for rhetoric and. For the poetic science, right, and then for what music, right? Okay. If you take our great music in, say, the 18th century, especially, but what you see in the great music of the 18th century is there's a tendency almost across the board to use major keys for certain emotions and minor keys for other emotions, huh?

[26:52] And sometimes, you know, with some composers in particular, you'll see a tendency to use even among the major keys certain keys more for one thing than for another, right? It's in feel for these keys, right? Okay. So, if you're representing joy, you tend to use a major key. If you're representing sadness, you'll be using a what? Minor key, right? Ah, now down here it's a little different.

[27:26] If you're representing anger, it'll be a minor key. If you're representing what hope, it'll be a major key. Despair will tend to be a minor key. Fear will be a minor key. What boldness will be a what? Yeah, yeah. So if you have a march like that, you know, you tend to use say C major or D major, right? You have the Jupiter Symphony of Mozart, right, or the Linz Symphony, right?

[27:54] These representations of hope, right, Magnanimity, right. So they're in in what C major, right? Mozart tends to use maybe B flat or G major, right, more for the jubilant, right? And C major or D major more for marches and for the irascible, right? Okay. And he represents anger, Um, the two concertos where he represents anger: the 24th and the 20th. The 24th is in D minor, and the 20—I mean, the 20th is in D minor.

[28:32] 24th is in what? C, okay, C minor, right? Okay. Don Giovanni is going down to hell. I think I think it's in D minor, right? Okay. So, but say Mozart, you know, Mozart has these two quintets. They call the heavenly twins, you know, but there, first of five, fifteen, five, sixteen, you put them together. One is a representation of joy, it's in C major, okay, five fifteen, and then the the one about sadness, five sixteen, you know, is in what G minor, huh?

[29:12] So, but the greatest distinction between the major and the minor. Sometimes you have in Mozart's pieces you have like a little bit of a plot, huh? Like in the development, especially in major movement, and a melody that's in the in the major key will come back in the minor key after it's been a you know turning around. And

[29:39] so, it's important to understand the emotions to understand music, you know. Even though it's not always clear exactly what the joy is about or something.

[29:56] So those those four arts or four sciences, huh? Ethics, right? One of the four. Ethics. Rather, music. Ethics is about the moral virtues, you know, in a large part, and many of the moral virtues have as their matter some emotions, right? That's true. So, so temperance is about what hunger and thirst and and the pleasure you take in these things, right? Okay. And courage is about fear and boldness, right?

[30:35] And mildness is about what anger and magnanimity is about hope and despair, right? Pusillanimity the vice, and despair. Patience, maybe, but sadness and so on. So rhetoric is about emotions for different reasons. Rhetoric is about is the art of persuasion, right? And and one means of persuasion, as Aristotle says, is the image you project of yourself. Okay. Second means of persuasion is the way you move the emotions and the customs of the people you're talking to, right?

[31:17] And the the least important is the argument you give. He says. Just the father of logic says that right. Okay, so people are more moved by the image than by the argument. It's interesting, you know, in the famous Nixon Kennedy debate, right? Yeah. Those who heard them on the radio thought Nixon did better. because he was more, He was in terms of reason, it was better, huh?

[31:45] But Kennedy projected this image, you know, of a young, vibrant guy, and so on. And Nixon, even the makeup wasn't right, I guess, for him. You know. Beard is growing. Yeah, so it's kind of the the image, you know, of the people was different, right? Yeah. But Kennedy was seen was seen to was thought to win by those who saw on TV, right? Sure. But they were judging by the image, but the image is is generally speaking stronger, right?

[32:07] Yeah. So the politician worries primarily by image. But the second means of persuasion after that is the way he moves the emotions of his audience, and you see them doing this all the time.

[32:21] So he has a different reason for talking about the emotions than the. The moral philosopher, that's right. Yeah. Okay. So Thomas will usually talk about emotions in the context of, you know, moral theology or moral philosophy, right? He won't talk about that. right? But then you can say the poetic science is interested in emotions for two reasons. One is that it wants to represent people under various emotions,

[32:54] and then the other is that the different forms of fiction move different emotions in us. And if they're good forms of fiction, they they move the emotions to a better state than they usually are in. If it's bad, it would be move the emotion to a worse state than they usually? So, and then music, of course, both moves our emotions, but it's very much a representation of the emotions, especially by imitating the what natural sign of emotions in human human voice.

[33:48] Because these names of the emotions are carried over and given to what acts of the will, sometimes, okay? By a certain likeness between the what acts of the will and the emotions. But when you carry these names over to the acts of the will, you drop out anything bodily in these, huh? Okay,

[34:20] because the will, like reason, is not a body. Emotions or the feelings, as the word "feelings" kind of suggests, they involve some kind of a bodily change.

[34:37] It's very obvious when you get ashamed, or when you get angry, or when you get fearful that your body is changing. When you get sad, your body gets kind of weighed down, and so on, right? When you're joyful, your body gets kind of and so on. So

[35:00] Thomas will talk about how these names all become what equivocal by reason, huh? And so, perhaps almost all of these names can be carried over to the acts of our will. Then Thomas will ask the respondeo which ones can be carried over to what God, right? Well, when you say, well, when you carry them over to the will, even to our will, you drop out the the bodily change associated with these emotions, huh?

[35:38] You keep what we might call the formal aspect of them. But if you examine the formal aspect of these, you'll see that some of them, in fact, most of them, cannot be carried over to God. See, so for example, can you speak of desiring God?

[36:01] No, because then you'd be saying that there's some good that God doesn't have, right? So you have to carry over to God. Can God undergo anything bad?

[36:14] No. No. So all of these ones who concern the bad cannot be God, right? Okay. Even as an act of will, is anything difficult for God?

[36:34] So none of these can be said of God. Okay. So the only two names of the emotions can be carried over to the act of God's will are love and joy. Yeah. Okay. And you can say, properly speaking, God is love and joy. Nothing but two different things in God that there are not. So, so Saint John can say God is love, right? Mm. There is more joy in heaven, or.

[37:11] Oh good. And Aristotle was aware of the fact that there is love and joy, pleasure in God. But then Thomas says some names are carried over to God metaphorically speaking, not properly, right? So anger is sometimes used as a metaphor for what? Mm. For the divine justice, right? The divine will to punish, right? And sometimes pity, which is a name of some sadness, is

[37:50] carried over and applied to God's what? Mercy is will to relieve our what? Misery, right? But fear can in no way be carried over to God, even metaphorically, right? God in His divine nature. And but something like maybe boldness could be right. You see, because of a certain metaphorical likeness, um. Yeah. That just as the bold man, you know, approaches dangers and overcomes them, right? So God, you know, you know.

[38:25] So we speak of God as being, you know, according to but these are the metaphors, right? So it's beautiful if you ever see the last part of the first book of the Summa Contra Gentiles Uh. He goes through the you know recalls the teaching about the emotions. And then he he he shows how the names of emotions can be carried over to the acts of the will in us, right?

[38:57] And that's one way in which a name becomes equivocal. Mm. By reason, by dropping part of its meaning. Yeah, that's right. You see. And in the emotions, there is both a formal aspect. I can say anger is a desire for revenge or something like that, right? But there is also a bodily aspect of that. Yeah. Yeah. So you drop the bodily aspect out and keep the formal aspect, right?

[39:20] Okay. So same with hope. Whereas bodily hope is dropped out, but the idea that there is a movement of the desire and power towards the good that is difficult, right? You see, that's kept, and then he talks about that. He talks about which names can be carried most of them over to God. And it's only joy, pleasure, joy, or love that can be carried over to God, properly speaking, right?

[39:52] But some other ones can be carried over to God metaphorically, right? But not properly, huh? Okay, now what do we mean properly? You you still drop out body aspect, right? Yeah, but you keep the formal aspect. You see, you see, love is for a good, right? Okay, that's that's a basic. You don't have love, you don't have anything, right, in the thing. And you can have love for a good that is present or it's absent, right?

[40:23] But the love is stronger when the thing is present, huh? Okay. Then what are you doing? That's different in the metaphorical to the properly. What would be what? What's different from the metaphor? Well, I would say, as I say, if you speak of God as being,

[40:42] you see, anger. Yeah, yeah. But see, anger arises from sadness. Well, there can't be any sadness in God because that means there'd be some kind of something bad that is forced upon God, okay? But because the angry man punishes, right? Oh, I see. It is. It is like twice. Yeah, likeness there in the effect. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, because God punishes like the angry man punishes, right?

[41:12] Yeah. Um. The angry man does so out of emotion and so on and the like, but God simply His will is to rectify things. So metaphorically, is said to be angry, right? Okay. Yeah. And the one Psalm that they say since the beginning of the office ninety four there, right? You know, the old number ninety four says what? Swore in his anger, you know, because they don't know my ways.

[41:39] Yeah. You know, he's not even to my rest. Yep. It's a very you know, say it's firm in his justice now, not to to take them into his rest. So, anger

[41:54] said metaphorically, okay. But Thomas would say, but fear. There's no reason to say fear either metaphorically of God. You see, there's no real likeness there, huh? Yeah. Okay.

[42:10] See, but none of the irascible ones we said properly of God, because the irascible has the arduum, the difficult, as this object done. And? Nothing's difficult for God.

[42:25] It's kind of, you know, it's just kind of incredible. God, you mean to, nothing difficult for you. You know, I don't know if this is true or not, but you know, Thomas Aquinas was to, you know, on his deathbed there, you know, thank God that he had understood everything he had ever read. Yeah. I heard that. I don't know if that's true or not. Isn't that true about me?

[42:48] Yeah. But it would be so nice to have understood everything you'd read, right? Yeah. I can't even understand the the directions there for for my computer or whatever. Yeah, that's interesting. It's it's amazing, you know. We're trying to you know get a Greek font that the printer would would print. You know, and we won't print some and and and but really it's it's it's really crazy the the things you can interfere with doing what you wanted to do.

[43:18] It really is extremely complicated. Yeah. So I mean, there are so many things. can never. I understand directions anyway, what I get for things, you know. So I certainly can't say that I've understood everything I've read, huh? And certainly I can't say that everything has been easy. Yeah, but easy. So, so, you see, even the formal aspect of this, the practical, bodily aspect, right? The formal aspect is always there has to be something difficult, right?

[43:49] Good, difficult to get. Well, there is no good which is difficult for God to get. Right. There is nothing bad that is difficult for God to avoid, right? No. And there is no badness that has been inflicted upon God that is difficult for Him to get rid of, right? Okay. So,

[44:09] no passion of the irascible could be said properly of God because of what the very definition of it, right? Okay. But you get here and I see these things. The reason we gave could never be said of God properly, right?

[44:29] But not even desire, because that would imply there is some good that God doesn't have, right? But in the idea of joy, that its object is a present good, it fits God, very much, right? Huh? The goodness itself, right, Is very good, and and love, which of course is the basic one, now you can enjoy love, and so. In Thomas, sometimes we quote Aristotle, you know, you know, where he speaks of of God's rejoicing, you know, and how simple his rejoicing, is, huh?

[45:02] How perfect it is. Now, but you know, what does the Christ say? Enter into the joy of your master, right? Was that a thing you know? You've been faithful over little things, you know, now you enter into the joy of your master. Mm hmm Yeah.

[45:16] Now, when St. Thomas says that he understood everything he read, he also says in his letter to the. I don't know if he said that. I mean, just but said by.

[45:29] He said, "You gain just a little bit at a time." So he went through that too. He may have understood everything, but it wasn't just like he was. I understand. I understand. No, no, actually, the accounts I get of Thomas, you know, where he was puzzled by something trying to understand Saint Paul, right? Yes. And then he'd go down to the ground and start praying, you know, and then get up.

[45:50] Now I see it. That's what I read too. Really, and thought things. Yeah, and there's supposed to have been one time you know Thomas came out of his cell and said, "You never believe who was in there? Saint Paul was in there. " He was conversing with Saint Paul, you know. Wow. So, so I mean, you know, this other thing about having understood everything, you know, it's like the story, you know, you know, they tell Thomas, you know, having some kind of a operation, you know, surgery, you know, and just, you know, getting thinking deeply about something, and then he goes, "well, the surgery doesn't.

[46:19] bother him, right? Because he's so. Oh, Oh, he's so absorbed. Yeah. I find that somewhat questionable, you know. You know. It is. It shows the separation of powers, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you see, maybe in some sense, Thomas did understand everything he read, you know, but not instantly. Yeah, not instantly, no, no. All right, But for God, strictly speaking, you know, nothing is difficult, right?

[46:45] That's right. So, so you can't be, you know, have the irascible things. No harm can come to God, huh? But so only two of them can be said properly, but some other ones can be said metaphorically, right? Okay. It's a beautiful thing, so. So to understand these things, is important for theology too. For thinking about, you know, the will, but thinking ultimately about God, huh? So that's the fifth place where these, you know.

[47:21] Yeah. Yeah. Now you have to understand these, you know, and see from their formal meaning, even which is part of their meaning, why some of them can be carried over to our will, but not to God's will, huh? Now we would say that with this metaphorical use, you really aren't keeping the formal aspect. No, no, yeah, at all. So because you are going down one, okay? Because anger, formally speaking, is you are moving against right.

[47:53] Some evil that has been causing you sadness, right? None of this possible for God, right? Yeah. Okay? Dr Berquist was. saying. I still don't have the original four: ethics, rhetoric, music, and. Poetic. Ethics, rhetoric, poetic music. Poetic science and then music. Yeah. I see. The poetic science is interested in it both because it wants to represent, you know, people in various emotions, right? Yeah. But also because the work, the tragedy or the comedy that he already writes, moves certain emotions, huh?

[48:30] In the audience, right? He wants to move these emotions in a certain way, huh? I thought you said in your notes, music's the most powerful way to move, and then poetic second, or something. Yeah, yeah, music is is the most persuasive of things, huh? To move our emotions, then poetic is the second. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what's happening out, like a movie out in the world.

[48:54] They're moving us both ways with the music and emotion and reasoning. Yeah. yeah, Like. that movie. Yeah, they're really whacking. They rely on music. And the thing, you know, in our senses, they're appealing to our senses. The thing you notice about some of these successful movies, too, is is that they were very fortunate in getting just the right music. Oh yeah. Yeah, great ones. Yeah. So it's famous as Gone with the Wind.

[49:17] that that music really made the thing, you know. Yeah. in some ways. Mm. And you know, I can think of other movies. You know, the Brian song, yeah, yeah, Saturday's Fire, yeah, sure. Yeah. Well, certain music, I mean, catches the mood that you want to catch in there in the thing there, and they're really capturing us with these movies out there, aren't they? They're moving us all these ways, telling us a story.

[49:44] They're yeah music. You see how how good the the Nazis did it too, you know. I mean, use music, you know, persuasively. Yeah. I mean,

[49:58] like the March is kind of aggressive. Yeah, yeah. John Drayton there, huh? As an ode to the Feast of Saint Cecilia, it was a bitness of music, but it's it's Timotheus, you know, the famous musician of ancient times performing at a banquet there where Alexander the Great is, and he plays one kind of music, you know. Alexander's almost like back in battle, you know. He's a really a formidable man, must have been, right?

[50:22] And then he changes the music, you know, and he's getting amorous with the lady next to him, and so he's like, he's like, buddy, I was there, Timotheus. The

[50:33] Shakespeare, you know, you know, was very much aware of the power of music and how can provoke to good or bad, and this is the thing you realize too. um, even, you know, a place like Tac, you know, where you're getting kids who are pretty, you know, well disposed as Yeah. kids in our society, you come from you know strong you know, Catholic backgrounds and so on.

[51:01] You can more easily get them into good literature than into good music. If they if they've heard you know the wrong kind of music and and their emotions have been somehow, they it's very hard to to to even get in there and change them, you know. And and you know, even my daughter can see that, you know, you know, and and other people I've talked to. My brother Marcus, you know, sometimes when they they give a usual talk with one of the, the tutors in the fall, you know, my brother Marcus talked in music, you know, and you can see that kind of that you know impediment that people have because their emotions have been malformed by the music they listen to.

[51:45] Customs so strong. Yeah, yeah. You see what what a strong thing music is. Once you get attached to a certain kind of music, But literature is a little more a little more intellectual, you see, and your emotions are not. it's not quite as uh, as natural as music is. uh. Music bypasses reasoning, doesn't it, in a sense, It just moves. Well, not entirely. No, no, but you see.

[52:13] The excellence of the music of the 18th century is that it represents the emotions in a state in harmony with reason, and yet they respect you know the nature of the emotions, and that's why you should be you know accustomed to listening to the music of the 18th century. You get into the Romantic period, you see Romantics wouldn't accept that subordination of the emotions to reason. Oh, that's right.

[52:39] But actually, music of the 18th century is more beautiful than the 19th. The Romantic music, you know, and it's very interesting, you know, to see how Tchaikovsky is so devoted to Mozart, right? And we have the letters of Tchaikovsky, you know, where he was listening to Mozart simply because he was trying to avoid the disorder of his own life. Oh yeah. You know, like like he tried to kill himself and things of that sort.

[53:03] You know, you know, and put all the water there. He can't quite go through with it, you know, and so on. And people are kind of surprised he listens to the music of Mozart, you know, because it doesn't seem to fit his disordered life and disordered thing. but he's trying to flee that to get some some order into his life. It doesn't fit his his music reflected more his life, too didn't it?

[53:22] What His? Music reflected more his life too than Mozart. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but but you have his famous, you know, you know, Mozartian in there. He's he's playing take Mozart's melodies and kind of playing with them, you know, varying them. And he's on Mozart right now. He's a thing. Oh yeah. But but you know the music of the Baroque and and and Mozart's music, huh? It's much more healthy for the for the emotions than Romantic music is.

[53:54] Now, how does it move? I say I got when I was first introduced to music. You know, I remember the first thing around the house in the old seventy eight s was you know when Beethoven, Symphony and some Tchaikovsky and so on. You know. Yeah. And my uncle who taught violin in the church of music, he said, "See, you come to Mozart," he said. Oh. Come to Mozart.

[54:15] He didn't argue with us, you know. But then my brother Richard got in college there and he had Austen as a teacher, right? Oh. Austen wrote that famous little essay towards an evaluation of music. Yeah. So that was one of the texts in the course. So that's when I first read that. That's when I really started listening to the Baroque and to Mozart. And you know, I don't have much desire to listen to Tchaikovsky much here.

[54:41] Yeah. Beethoven of them. Is Beethoven considered a romantic? Yeah, he's well, he's kind of at the beginning of it, you know. You know Schubert. So he was after Mozart. Yeah, Mozart taught Beethoven. Oh. You know, at one time a little bit. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. They always have you know Beethoven when he was with one of the other students there and they were listening, hearing Mozart's 24th piano concerto, and Beethoven says, "Now he says we shall never equal that," he said.

[55:11] Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so if the Mozart's the best, who would be second and third? Bach. Well, we were just discussing out in California, one time, a bunch of us reasonable men there. We put Mozart first, and Handel second, and Johann Sebastian Bach third. you know. Oh. Handel and Bach. okay. Yeah, but but you but, you know Corelli up there too, you know Corelli Corelli. Yeah.

[55:40] I heard that name recently. Yeah, he's he's something. Yeah. Corelli. Corelli. How do I even know that name? Yeah, the funny. Did we hear about Arcangelo Corelli? It's a different Corelli. Yeah. How do you spell it? Do you know? C O R E L L I. Corelli. Yeah. First name? What's the first name? Oh, I think that... He's buried in the Pantheon, huh? We. The Cardinal had him buried in the Pantheon.

[56:07] Oh. Father Elias, I think one of the pieces from the um the tenor Andrea. Oh. Okay. I love that. He's a lesser tenor. He's a blind. Yeah. All the music we have Corelli, is instrumental. You know. Okay. They might make it into something. Okay. Yeah. All right. well. all right. so Mozart. Handel, Bach. Corelli, yeah. That's interesting. Yeah.

[56:37] Now, Handel had some connection with Mozart too, right? Was he like. a... Well, I mean, I mean Mozart. revised some of Handel's works, you know. That's what it was. It's funny, you know. I went to Christmas. I was going to buy, you know, a copy of The Messiah, right? And you have all these, you know, it's so many recordings. Yeah. You kind of had to know it, But sometimes you'd see, you know, they'd have, you know, Ha- Handel-and Mozart hyphenated because.

[57:03] Oh yeah. Mozart, you know, had revised it, They say improved it actually. But others say you know they want the pure, and you know those disputes begin, you know, so. Sure. So, but. You can see it, you know, especially in the later Mozart, you know, influence of Handel. But Mozart had great respect for Johann Sebastian Bach too, you know. He went up to Bach's place and played the organ, you know, and they came out and said, "Just like the master, you know, " Mozart was playing as well as Bach, you know, and.

[57:32] And then Mozart was seeing the manuscripts of Bach, you know, they were not published, you know, and he had them all on the floor and he's learning from them, you know. He learned something from this, huh? But it's kind of interesting. The Baron van Swieten there, who was the the royal librarian there in Vienna, he he'd have only Bach, and Handel at his Sunday afternoon musics. Oh yeah.

[57:58] So Mozart had great respect for both of them, you know, Handel and and Bach. Mozart's life. I'm surprised that Mozart's life was actually disordered. I mean, it seems like. Why you judging by the movie? You mean. Well, all right. Look, I'm sorry, but the fact is that I don't know anything about his life except what the movie may reflect. I've never. Yeah, no, the movie. You can't say movie is accurate at all.

[58:22] I don't think. Is is is is is. Yeah, it's just. I mean, it's just trying to make Mozart, a, rock star. Oh okay. Yeah, just. Best way to see that movie is to close your eyes and just to hear the music. Do you know of a good a good biography of him? Einstein's biography. Oh, oh, Einstein or the biography of Mozart? Oh, for Einstein, that's brilliant. Oh, is.

[58:51] Actually, a cousin of Albert Einstein. Oh yeah, is he? But but you know Einstein thought Mozart was the greatest composer, huh? Is he? Yeah. And he says. Famous book in the last. It's very very very interesting the difference between Albert Einstein his remark about Beethoven and and Mozart. You know, he said he said Beethoven made his music, huh? You know, Mozart found it. Mozart's music seemed, he says, to have been a part of the universe always.

[59:13] You know. Oh yeah. I think that's interesting observation. You know, I remember my brother Mark saying about Shakespeare there, and we can't quite imagine a world that doesn't have Romeo and Juliet in it that play, right? You know, it seemed like it had to be a part of our literature, right? You know, and that's why Mozart is just seems so natural, you know. Mozart himself said, "You know, if writing music doesn't come to you like piddling comes to the the beasties, Uh huh You shouldn't write music, you know, I'm sorry like what comes to the what Piddling, you know, you know, with the kind of a vulgar way of saying it, yes.

[59:49] I mean, you know, just you know, kind of natural, you know the way. Gotcha. All right. Yeah. It's very natural. You realize too how short Mozart's life was. Yeah. I mean, people like like Haydn were you know composing up into their you know seventies, I guess. Yeah. How old was he when he died? Thirty six. He wasn't even thirty six. He was in a thirty sixth year.

[1:00:11] Oh, yeah. Mozart. Yeah. I mean, I know myself. I I went to the in fifty six, in nineteen fifty six. I went to the concert celebrating Mozart, the birth of Mozart, the two hundredth anniversary of his birth. Yeah. And then I was present, you know, for the two hundredth anniversary of his death, right? You know, so I mean, I lived, you know, much longer before and afterwards.

[1:00:39] I was the accomplished student compared to him, but I mean, you know, he was how short a life that was. If he had lived another twenty, thirty years, I mean, you know, you know, I mean, it's like there would have been no room for anybody else. there, Everybody else would have been pushed off the whole thing, you know. Just, uh... What about someone like um, um, Pacabell?

[1:01:01] Pacabell and uh... How does he fit in? Well, you got. I mean, they said there are all kinds of nice pieces. I mean, Was he 18th century Baroque? Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Maybe a little bit earlier than that. Yeah. not much the same, I think. What's the Four Seasons, fella? Vivaldi. Yeah, Vivaldi's good, but not as good as Corelli, you know. Okay. So he's Baroque, Vivaldi.

[1:01:19] Oh yeah, Vivaldi's quite good too. Yeah. There's all kinds of people there, you know. Yeah. And they have nice pieces. I mean. Yeah. I mean, I like Johann Christian Bach. Oh. Had such an influence on Mozart. Oh. Youngest son, he's the one went south and married a Catholic and became a Catholic. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Uh huh.

[1:01:43] I asked Monsieur Dionne if he preferred Bach. or Mozart, of course, he preferred Mozart, right? Uh huh. But you know, for him, Bach was trop severe, as he said in French, he's too austere, you know. Oh. There's something to that. yeah. Yeah. By the way, Handel is warmer, you know. Oh. And uh, you know, if I was if I was going to argue that that Handel was the greatest composer, you know, that he you know was